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Our landlord has given us a month to move out. I'm wondering what I am legally responsible to remove from the apartment? Can we leave furniture?
This is the 3rd floor apartment of a three level building, just barely outside a city.
"We" haven't had a lease since 2006. The original three roommates (whose names were on the 1-year lease) were friends of mine, and I moved in in 2009. The original three moved out years ago. The house is full of old furniture that doesn't really belong to anyone, just stuff the 10+ roommates have left behind over the years. The original three paid a security deposit, but that hasn't transferred to the new roommates, and no one is expecting any money back.
The landlord is a sickly old man, and hasn't been to the apartment in 10 years, nor has he sent or hired anyone to do maintenance. I have personally done most of the carpentry, electrical, plumbing, and painting. The kitchen sink doesn't work, the doorbell doesn't work, there are no smoke detectors, ALL of the electricity in the apartment is ungrounded, the oven doesn't work, only one of four stovetop burners work. To be honest, he probably doesn't have any clue about these issues. He doesn't do email or phone, just letters.
Out of the blue he tells us that we need to leave the apartment... he's selling it for a fortune.
If we leave behind couches, tables, a bed, dishes, etc, what's the worst that could happen? I don't feel like I owe this man any favors, after all this time of being in absentia, but I also don't want to be sued.
Thanks
-Andrew
Hi Andrew, Well, first off to give good advice, we need to know at least the state you live in. And some cities have specific laws, too.
That said, you've been paying rent since 2009, so there is no question that you are a tenant. That means you have the right of a tenant and the resposibilities of a tenant.
So, yes, all tenants on the original lease, and you, can be sued and held liable for any damage.
The landlord, though, also has to abide by all laws regarding your move-out. So, for instance, in CA, if the landlord didn't give you the proper written notice of your right to a pre-move-out inspection, and let you know in detail what you need to do to get all of your deposit back - then, that landlord can't legally withhold any of your deposit. So, if you sue him or he tries to sue you over the deposit, you would win by default.
So, knowing the move-out and security deposit laws that apply to you are crucial.
And, if the landlord tries to sue you over any costs, that are over and above the deposit, you can always counter-sue for whatever.
But, if the place was falling apart, and you never gave the landlord notice that it was falling apart, you can't really hold him accountable for it, can you?
You should also know that any damage to carpets, etc., must be pro-rated according to the life expectancy of that item. So, if the carpet was new in 2000, and has a life expectancy of 6 years, obviously the LL can't charge you for any carpet damage, because it's past it's life expectancy.
Honestly, I can't imagine the LL getting away with charging you or previous tenants more than $2000 worth of damage that is not normal wear and tear. Even if he has to haul off a ton of junk. So, I really don't think you have to worry about it. And like I say, if he decides to try and sue you, you can always counter-sue or find the laws that show that he didn't follow security deposit law, or require him to prove his actual out-of-pocket costs were not only legal but reasonable and above $2,000.
So, I would probably leave the furniture and deal with it if he decides to hassle me over it, by showing him the law and asking him to provide receipts of actual out-of-pocket losses over $2,000. In other words, I'd be very comfortable calling his bluff. You'd have to decide if you're comfortable doing that.
Location: Finally the house is done and we are in Port St. Lucie!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMoreSnowForMe
Hi Andrew, Well, first off to give good advice, we need to know at least the state you live in. And some cities have specific laws, too.
That said, you've been paying rent since 2009, so there is no question that you are a tenant. That means you have the right of a tenant and the resposibilities of a tenant.
So, yes, all tenants on the original lease, and you, can be sued and held liable for any damage.
The landlord, though, also has to abide by all laws regarding your move-out. So, for instance, in CA, if the landlord didn't give you the proper written notice of your right to a pre-move-out inspection, and let you know in detail what you need to do to get all of your deposit back - then, that landlord can't legally withhold any of your deposit. So, if you sue him or he tries to sue you over the deposit, you would win by default.
So, knowing the move-out and security deposit laws that apply to you are crucial.
And, if the landlord tries to sue you over any costs, that are over and above the deposit, you can always counter-sue for whatever.
But, if the place was falling apart, and you never gave the landlord notice that it was falling apart, you can't really hold him accountable for it, can you?
You should also know that any damage to carpets, etc., must be pro-rated according to the life expectancy of that item. So, if the carpet was new in 2000, and has a life expectancy of 6 years, obviously the LL can't charge you for any carpet damage, because it's past it's life expectancy.
Honestly, I can't imagine the LL getting away with charging you or previous tenants more than $2000 worth of damage that is not normal wear and tear. Even if he has to haul off a ton of junk. So, I really don't think you have to worry about it. And like I say, if he decides to try and sue you, you can always counter-sue or find the laws that show that he didn't follow security deposit law, or require him to prove his actual out-of-pocket costs were not only legal but reasonable and above $2,000.
So, I would probably leave the furniture and deal with it if he decides to hassle me over it, by showing him the law and asking him to provide receipts of actual out-of-pocket losses over $2,000. In other words, I'd be very comfortable calling his bluff. You'd have to decide if you're comfortable doing that.
The original tenants have long since moved. They never expect to get the security deposit and the OP is Not one of the original tenants on the lease. The security deposit being returned is a non issue.
The OP nor his roommates are on the lease as the lease expired years ago. Several tenants have come and gone since the lease expired without renewal. Kind of like a revolving door where one leaves, a friend takes that persons place etc... Eventually the landlord has no clue as to who is living there. Sounds like he didn't care as long as he was getting a monthly income.
No one is expecting or worried about the security deposit. The OP just wants to know if he needs to get rid of the furniture that has been left by the many revolving former roommates.
For some reason, I'm picturing college kids in this scenario.
I forgot to mention: The original three roommates paid a security deposit, but that hasn't transferred to the new roommates, and no one is expecting any money back.
It has transferred, it's an automatic transfer and it's up for the people who left to get their part of the deposit back from the new tenants. Whoever rents the apartment and is on the lease gets back the deposit minus any deductions. Remove and throw out all the old furniture unless he wants it and if so have it in writing. Call your town and ask about garbage collection of old furniture and when to place it outside.
I get the feeling the original tenants abandoned any thought of getting their deposit back. It's possible current tenants don't even have contact information. In any case current tenants didn't put anything into the deposit, so whether the deposit is returned is moot.
The only issue is what to do with the furniture. As I said, call landlord and ask. I would say, "I don't own any of this furniture. Since I'm leaving at the end of the month do you mind if I just pack my bags and leave the furniture behind? If so, what do you want done with the furniture?"
It seems to me that landlord would use the deposit to hire somebody to empty the rental unit. I do question whether the landlord has any responsibility to retain or store furniture for original tenants. I certainly wouldn't give current tenant any written instructions. I'm glad I'm not the landlord.
I get the feeling the original tenants abandoned any thought of getting their deposit back. It's possible current tenants don't even have contact information. In any case current tenants didn't put anything into the deposit, so whether the deposit is returned is moot.
The only issue is what to do with the furniture. As I said, call landlord and ask. I would say, "I don't own any of this furniture. Since I'm leaving at the end of the month do you mind if I just pack my bags and leave the furniture behind? If so, what do you want done with the furniture?"
It seems to me that landlord would use the deposit to hire somebody to empty the rental unit. I do question whether the landlord has any responsibility to retain or store furniture for original tenants. I certainly wouldn't give current tenant any written instructions. I'm glad I'm not the landlord.
The current tenant should just pack his bags, take his belongings and LEAVE after the 30-days' notice has run out. Most important: Do not give out any "where-to-contact-me" address. It's most probably a wash.
As a landlord I'd hate for a tenant to do that to me. However, as a landlord I have all kinds of things nasty tenants do to me, I deal with it.
In the end it sounds to me like landlord still has deposit and I hope it covers cost of property removal and repair of any damages.
After discarding furniture I would worry about future claims from original leasees that they want their furniture back. Sounds like locating original leasees could be a problem, sounds like storage of furniture could well cost much more than furniture is worth. I'd probably thoroughly document (photograph) the furniture to be discarded, make a good faith attempt to locate original leasees, and hope it turns into a simple "original leasees gone, furniture trashed, nothing more ever heard."
That is why I do not rent to roommates -- I accept only single persons or families. I also enforce the clause that no additional persons may live in the rental without written approval from landlord (after credit and criminal background checks pass) but I still wouldn't accept unrelated people.
If this landlord ends up with problems he has nobody but himself to blame for his shoddy management policies.
As a landlord I'd hate for a tenant to do that to me. However, as a landlord I have all kinds of things nasty tenants do to me, I deal with it.
In the end it sounds to me like landlord still has deposit and I hope it covers cost of property removal and repair of any damages.
After discarding furniture I would worry about future claims from original leasees that they want their furniture back. Sounds like locating original leasees could be a problem, sounds like storage of furniture could well cost much more than furniture is worth. I'd probably thoroughly document (photograph) the furniture to be discarded, make a good faith attempt to locate original leasees, and hope it turns into a simple "original leasees gone, furniture trashed, nothing more ever heard."
That is why I do not rent to roommates -- I accept only single persons or families. I also enforce the clause that no additional persons may live in the rental without written approval from landlord (after credit and criminal background checks pass) but I still wouldn't accept unrelated people.
If this landlord ends up with problems he has nobody but himself to blame for his shoddy management policies.
After tenants abandon their belongings, I think it is for a max of 6 weeks, w/o getting into contact with the LL, the LL has the right to get rid of the stuff.
This is not pertinent to this case, but....
I think it is even less than 6 weeks, because the LL wants to clean up the apartment for the next tenants, so would have to put the stuff into storage.
As a landlord I'd hate for a tenant to do that to me. However, as a landlord I have all kinds of things nasty tenants do to me, I deal with it.
In the end it sounds to me like landlord still has deposit and I hope it covers cost of property removal and repair of any damages.
After discarding furniture I would worry about future claims from original leasees that they want their furniture back. Sounds like locating original leasees could be a problem, sounds like storage of furniture could well cost much more than furniture is worth. I'd probably thoroughly document (photograph) the furniture to be discarded, make a good faith attempt to locate original leasees, and hope it turns into a simple "original leasees gone, furniture trashed, nothing more ever heard."
That is why I do not rent to roommates -- I accept only single persons or families. I also enforce the clause that no additional persons may live in the rental without written approval from landlord (after credit and criminal background checks pass) but I still wouldn't accept unrelated people.
If this landlord ends up with problems he has nobody but himself to blame for his shoddy management policies.
The former tenants have no right to the furniture anymore, Statute of Limitation surely expired.
As a landlord I'd hate for a tenant to do that to me. However, as a landlord I have all kinds of things nasty tenants do to me, I deal with it.
In the end it sounds to me like landlord still has deposit and I hope it covers cost of property removal and repair of any damages.
After discarding furniture I would worry about future claims from original leasees that they want their furniture back. Sounds like locating original leasees could be a problem, sounds like storage of furniture could well cost much more than furniture is worth. I'd probably thoroughly document (photograph) the furniture to be discarded, make a good faith attempt to locate original leasees, and hope it turns into a simple "original leasees gone, furniture trashed, nothing more ever heard."
That is why I do not rent to roommates -- I accept only single persons or families. I also enforce the clause that no additional persons may live in the rental without written approval from landlord (after credit and criminal background checks pass) but I still wouldn't accept unrelated people.
If this landlord ends up with problems he has nobody but himself to blame for his shoddy management policies.
This is not correct, at least not in NYC:
Every tenant has the right to one additional occupant, who does not even have to be on the lease.
But the LL has to be notified of his name and that he lives there.
If the LL is against this practice he has to mention it specifically in the lease, or rental contract, that only persons who are mentioned in the lease have the right to live there.
Not true in AZ and stated in my leases that only persons named upon the lease may live there for any period exceeding 14 days.
I think you have a mistaken idea of "statute of limitations" which generally applies as the period that law enforcement has to bring charges for committing a crime (sometimes based upon the date of the crime, other situations based upon on the date of discovery a crime has been committed).
New York must be a tenant-friendly city or state. AZ is a landlord friendly state. No coincidence my rentals are in AZ. The financials for buying and renting a house in CA make it impossible, mainly due to the high property values and high property taxes. Housing prices in CA are simply unreal!
Some of this discussion could be avoided if the OP had stated which area/locale the property is located in. Laws vary throughout the country. Often if not usually the exact lease or rental contract have major consequences.
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