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Hello all, my lawyer is away for vacation currently and I'm posting for general advice of removing a difficult lodger in my home.
Background:
I reside in a 4 bedroom home with my partner that I do not legally own (it's owned legally by my parents; we had done an oral agreement to swap our properties since their tenant wanted to rent out my property and I wanted to be closer to work at this home). During some hard times in 2014 I rented out the 3 remaining bedrooms to a single tenant per room to help pay into the principal of this home's mortgage. I cover utilities according to the agreement, and have the standard chores/household consumables schedule. I'm not under financial stress anymore but have kept renting the rooms out since it helps speed up the mortgage payments.
The issue I'm having is with a tenant who started with me in March 2014 who is now on month-to-month. I have not done a formal update of her contract since then, aside from an addendum for rent increase once. My previous contract that she's on was not very good (I know, it was my first time and I'm a dum-dum). She's a bit difficult, but has increasingly become more so in the last 6 months. I started noticing when I started working from home more often. She'll harass other tenants passive aggressively, even causing two recent tenants to leave after their initial 3 month lease was up. She has become paranoid and accuses others of using "her" household supplies, which we all contribute to and share, and even accused me of monitoring/hacking into her internet usage. This isn't really benign stuff because I'm an IT professional and a man; she genuinely thinks the NSA and deep state is out to get all of us (though laughably she doesn't encrypt or VPN any of her activities). Generally, she'll act like she's the landlord, though she tends to calm down and apologize after I professionally put her back in her place and inform her of my rights and her rights.
I've had to accommodate her countless times for her complaints, such as for house chores done by others not being to her standard, others "leeching" from her supplies, etc. She won't let me enter her room for any sort of inspections (not that I really do this, since I'm a pretty relaxed type and am busy), though I've never really had a reason to inspect her room aside from her contraband mini refrigerator which was prohibited under the lease. I was tired following up on the tenants usage and cleaning of the provided refrigerator so I allowed all tenants to maintain their own mini fridge in their room and turned a blind eye to her previously unsanctioned fridge.
In July, I posted a 1 month notice for all tenants to make sure they're up to date on their purchases of household supplies based on the purchase spreadsheet I made to reduce her complaints, so I can do a count and see what surplus we have, so I can ask them to purchase less of certain items. All tenants except for the difficult one complied within the time frame I requested. When I spoke with her regarding her non-compliance (seriously she was missing maybe $15 of items, I didn't think it'd be a big deal), she started complaining about other tenants and bringing up non-related issues (which had be already rectified (they were only minor issues to begin with). In her logic, if others don't comply to her standard, she should not have to comply either. Eventually we agreed that she'd buy the missing items so I can do inventory, and she asked for an extension to August 27 (text message thread).
She had not done so by her promised date, and now claims it is her legal right to hoard her "contributed" supplies in her room (also by text message). She claims she had consulted with two attorneys, though honestly I doubt it. I advised her that as a lodger, I maintain overall control of the house, but she kept on insisting she has full rights as if she's renting an apartment/house/condo.
I hope everyone understands that I was pretty upset. It's hard to share a house with someone who you can't get along with, even at a professional/business level. I drew up a 60 day termination notice based on the NOLO template for CA after consulting the Orange County Sheriff's Office and Superior Court, but decided to wait a day to see how I felt. I have not posted or delivered the notice yet.
She has some experience regarding eviction. From my understanding, she needed to file an unlawful detainer eviction against her roommate in the apartment before renting the room from me. Based on what I've read in handbooks and the CA.gov landlord/renter handbook, wouldn't a successful UD eviction show up on someone's credit record? Why would she risk this and try to play hardball with me regarding this when I've been quite accommodating to her concerns?'
I'll stress again that I've always tried to be very respectful to all, but I feel like she's trying to assert rights that she does not have. I also do not plan on renting her room out any further if I can get her to leave.
Until my lawyer is available again, can I gather some thoughts from everyone? I will not be posting and mailing the notice until October 1st and I've received advice here and from my lawyer.
You're right. The lodger law only applies if you OWN the place and have only ONE lodger.
Quote:
wouldn't a successful UD eviction show up on someone's credit record? Why would she risk this and try to play hardball with me regarding this when I've been quite accommodating to her concerns?'
Could be a couple of reasons. Maybe she doesn't give a crap because her credit is already spotty. Maybe she sees you as a lilly livered landlord whose bark is worse than his bite. Maybe something else.
What difference does it make?
You want her out, give her the notice. Make sure you keep a copy and have a witness to the delivery in addition to mailing it as required by law.
Also, quit reading handbooks and go right to the statutes for your information:
The most important thing I learned early on when I was a landlord is that you have to have a heart of stone when it comes to tenants and you have to jump on them with both feet the minute they get out of line or they walk all over you.
If you aren't prepared to do that then you shouldn't be in the landlord business.
Another thing you should know is that the CA statutes give you a much shorter notice period if the tenant
Quote:
continues in possession, in person or by subtenant, after a neglect or failure to perform other conditions or covenants of the lease or agreement under which the property is held, including any covenant not to assign or sublet, than the one for the payment of rent, and three days’ notice, in writing, requiring the performance of such conditions or covenants, or the possession of the property, shall have been served upon him or her, and if there is a subtenant in actual occupation of the premises, also, upon the subtenant. Within three days after the service of the notice, the tenant, or any subtenant in actual occupation of the premises, or any mortgagee of the term, or other person interested in its continuance, may perform the conditions or covenants of the lease or pay the stipulated rent, as the case may be, and thereby save the lease from forfeiture; provided, if the conditions and covenants of the lease, violated by the lessee, cannot afterward be performed, then no notice, as last prescribed herein, need be given to the lessee or his or her subtenant, demanding the performance of the violated conditions or covenants of the lease.
Trouble with that is you don't have a written agreement specifying the terms of the tenancy which is a good argument for having one in the future if you are going to rent to anybody. Understand that a written "lease" doesn't have to be for a specific duration. It can be month to month to terminate at the will of either party with proper written notice. The important thing is to get a written contract with a tenant specifying the tenant's obligations.
You're right, as I mentioned the agreement I had with her was pretty terrible. It was 4 pages long, vs the 15+ page one my lawyer is currently helping me draft detailing every issue I could think of from my experience with this tenant. I've generally had good experiences previously, but I guess I had to learn eventually the hard way.
I'm not sure if she has a spotty credit history, but she is paranoid of banks and prefers to deal in cash.
I would be giving her the 60 day notice in by post-and-mail, on her room door and by mailing via certified mail to her PO box provided when she signed the lease. Or do you think it's a better idea to hire the sheriff to serve the notice and also mail? The OC Sheriff here offers a service for $40 to do so.
She claims that I have not rectified deficiencies, for example having everyone buying her her preferred brand of toilet paper. She brought up an old tenant who also "suffered picking up slack" alongside her. However in fact that former tenant was a poster child tenant and disliked the problem tenant, and besides she's back in China now (was an international student). Nothing she claimed was deficient and not rectified was in writing and to be honest usually I'd find out about it much later when she finally orally complained to me. I had told her many times if she had a complaint about something happening more than once she should provide it to me in writing but this was never done. She's using these sorts of complaints as the basis to assert her "right" not to contribute to everything else according to "her lawyer." Does she have any legal basis to make this assertion?
You're right, as I mentioned the agreement I had with her was pretty terrible. It was 4 pages long, vs the 15+ page one my lawyer is currently helping me draft detailing every issue I could think of from my experience with this tenant.
I always managed quite well with a one page lease.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoankiem
I've generally had good experiences previously, but I guess I had to learn eventually the hard way.
That's usually how it happens. I was lucky. My "first blood" occurred in the first year I had rentals. Set my tone for handling tenants for the next 20 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoankiem
I'm not sure if she has a spotty credit history, but she is paranoid of banks and prefers to deal in cash.
I had cash people, too. No problem. I just made duplicate receipts and kept careful records.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoankiem
I would be giving her the 60 day notice in by post-and-mail, on her room door and by mailing via certified mail to her PO box provided when she signed the lease. Or do you think it's a better idea to hire the sheriff to serve the notice and also mail? The OC Sheriff here offers a service for $40 to do so.
If you are more comfortable having the sheriff serve the notice, then do so. That has to be your decision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoankiem
Here's another question I forgot to ask:
She claims that I have not rectified deficiencies, for example having everyone buying her her preferred brand of toilet paper. She brought up an old tenant who also "suffered picking up slack" alongside her. However in fact that former tenant was a poster child tenant and disliked the problem tenant, and besides she's back in China now (was an international student). Nothing she claimed was deficient and not rectified was in writing and to be honest usually I'd find out about it much later when she finally orally complained to me. I had told her many times if she had a complaint about something happening more than once she should provide it to me in writing but this was never done. She's using these sorts of complaints as the basis to assert her "right" not to contribute to everything else according to "her lawyer." Does she have any legal basis to make this assertion?
Typical of tenants to bring up all that crap at the end. If it was me, I'd turn a deaf ear to it all. She might be bluffing or she might not. If you are hesitating about giving notice because you are nervous about what she can or cannot do, will or will not do, who she says she knows vs who she really knows or doesn't know, you'll never get her out.
Give her the notice and handle whatever comes, when it comes.
Hello all, my lawyer is away for vacation currently and I'm posting for general advice of removing a difficult lodger in my home.
Background:
I reside in a 4 bedroom home with my partner that I do not legally own (it's owned legally by my parents; we had done an oral agreement to swap our properties since their tenant wanted to rent out my property and I wanted to be closer to work at this home). During some hard times in 2014 I rented out the 3 remaining bedrooms to a single tenant per room to help pay into the principal of this home's mortgage. I cover utilities according to the agreement, and have the standard chores/household consumables schedule. I'm not under financial stress anymore but have kept renting the rooms out since it helps speed up the mortgage payments.
The issue I'm having is with a tenant who started with me in March 2014 who is now on month-to-month. I have not done a formal update of her contract since then, aside from an addendum for rent increase once. My previous contract that she's on was not very good (I know, it was my first time and I'm a dum-dum). She's a bit difficult, but has increasingly become more so in the last 6 months. I started noticing when I started working from home more often. She'll harass other tenants passive aggressively, even causing two recent tenants to leave after their initial 3 month lease was up. She has become paranoid and accuses others of using "her" household supplies, which we all contribute to and share, and even accused me of monitoring/hacking into her internet usage. This isn't really benign stuff because I'm an IT professional and a man; she genuinely thinks the NSA and deep state is out to get all of us (though laughably she doesn't encrypt or VPN any of her activities). Generally, she'll act like she's the landlord, though she tends to calm down and apologize after I professionally put her back in her place and inform her of my rights and her rights.
I've had to accommodate her countless times for her complaints, such as for house chores done by others not being to her standard, others "leeching" from her supplies, etc. She won't let me enter her room for any sort of inspections (not that I really do this, since I'm a pretty relaxed type and am busy), though I've never really had a reason to inspect her room aside from her contraband mini refrigerator which was prohibited under the lease. I was tired following up on the tenants usage and cleaning of the provided refrigerator so I allowed all tenants to maintain their own mini fridge in their room and turned a blind eye to her previously unsanctioned fridge.
In July, I posted a 1 month notice for all tenants to make sure they're up to date on their purchases of household supplies based on the purchase spreadsheet I made to reduce her complaints, so I can do a count and see what surplus we have, so I can ask them to purchase less of certain items. All tenants except for the difficult one complied within the time frame I requested. When I spoke with her regarding her non-compliance (seriously she was missing maybe $15 of items, I didn't think it'd be a big deal), she started complaining about other tenants and bringing up non-related issues (which had be already rectified (they were only minor issues to begin with). In her logic, if others don't comply to her standard, she should not have to comply either. Eventually we agreed that she'd buy the missing items so I can do inventory, and she asked for an extension to August 27 (text message thread).
She had not done so by her promised date, and now claims it is her legal right to hoard her "contributed" supplies in her room (also by text message). She claims she had consulted with two attorneys, though honestly I doubt it. I advised her that as a lodger, I maintain overall control of the house, but she kept on insisting she has full rights as if she's renting an apartment/house/condo.
I hope everyone understands that I was pretty upset. It's hard to share a house with someone who you can't get along with, even at a professional/business level. I drew up a 60 day termination notice based on the NOLO template for CA after consulting the Orange County Sheriff's Office and Superior Court, but decided to wait a day to see how I felt. I have not posted or delivered the notice yet.
She has some experience regarding eviction. From my understanding, she needed to file an unlawful detainer eviction against her roommate in the apartment before renting the room from me. Based on what I've read in handbooks and the CA.gov landlord/renter handbook, wouldn't a successful UD eviction show up on someone's credit record? Why would she risk this and try to play hardball with me regarding this when I've been quite accommodating to her concerns?'
I'll stress again that I've always tried to be very respectful to all, but I feel like she's trying to assert rights that she does not have. I also do not plan on renting her room out any further if I can get her to leave.
Until my lawyer is available again, can I gather some thoughts from everyone? I will not be posting and mailing the notice until October 1st and I've received advice here and from my lawyer.
I would recommend that you combine the 60 day notice with the notice you must give in CA about them taking all their stuff or you will store it for the required time, but she may have to pay for the storage, and also with the notice of an inspection / walk through for cleaning or damage. Since you have to give all three notices, you might just give all three at once. For the actual walk through be sure with her to say "as long as your room remains in this condition...."
Also, for the 60 day notice, I'd recommend just give her the notice to leave in 60 days and NOT a reason why. Any reason you give her will result in her arguing that the reason is not good. Just notice her and save that part of the grief.
IF you do serve her yourself, have her sign a form of receipt for the service and have a witness who will show up in court if needed, or mail it with return receipt if you can secure the return receipt, but leave the extra days to make sure its still 60 days of notice with the mailing time.
Could you sum up your long post and state clearly what you want to do.
My patience has run out on my tenant who rents a room from me because she's obnoxious, feels entitled, and making up fake lawyers and fake laws to not to subtly try to threaten me and reduce my rights as her landlord so she can live in a shared home as if she's in an apartment. I want to get rid of her legally ASAP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjusterjack
I always managed quite well with a one page lease.
How the heck do you do that and ensure tenants are not claiming they "did not know" or that "it wasn't in the lease?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjusterjack
That's usually how it happens. I was lucky. My "first blood" occurred in the first year I had rentals. Set my tone for handling tenants for the next 20 years.
This is definitely a learning experience for me. Personally before I owned, I had landlords from hell who harassed their tenants and thought that I can work things out with others amicably when I was the landlord. I thought wrong
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjusterjack
If you are more comfortable having the sheriff serve the notice, then do so. That has to be your decision.
I figured that having the sheriff serve the notice would take care of a few birds with one stone. Namely, ensure she can't claim that I had incorrectly served the notice as the sheriff would be the witness and have a record for the Superior Court. Secondly to send a not-to-subtle signal that I mean serious business and I'm not willing to have another back-and-forth with her again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjusterjack
Typical of tenants to bring up all that crap at the end. If it was me, I'd turn a deaf ear to it all. She might be bluffing or she might not. If you are hesitating about giving notice because you are nervous about what she can or cannot do, will or will not do, who she says she knows vs who she really knows or doesn't know, you'll never get her out.
Give her the notice and handle whatever comes, when it comes.
Personally I think she's bluffing because tbh she's full of cow crap. She's lost every fight she's ever been in... for example during her time here she went through 3-4 jobs probably, and lost all of them because she was the little light bulb in the room who thought it smart to challenge her supervisors and managers without proof or support from colleagues. Usually over dumb stuff such as feeling entitled or "everyone else is stupid."
I'll be turning a deaf ear and keeping records of any texts or emails she's sent me. I always respond professionally and firmly, but her half of the thread consists of rants and bringing up irrelevant issues. I'm planning to hold on serving the notice for now though until my lawyer gets back before the end of the month so my lawyer can OK the notice I drew up. I will also contact the sheriff and find out how much lead time do I need to give them to hire their services.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lae60
I would recommend that you combine the 60 day notice with the notice you must give in CA about them taking all their stuff or you will store it for the required time, but she may have to pay for the storage, and also with the notice of an inspection / walk through for cleaning or damage. Since you have to give all three notices, you might just give all three at once. For the actual walk through be sure with her to say "as long as your room remains in this condition...."
Also, for the 60 day notice, I'd recommend just give her the notice to leave in 60 days and NOT a reason why. Any reason you give her will result in her arguing that the reason is not good. Just notice her and save that part of the grief.
IF you do serve her yourself, have her sign a form of receipt for the service and have a witness who will show up in court if needed, or mail it with return receipt if you can secure the return receipt, but leave the extra days to make sure its still 60 days of notice with the mailing time.
In the notice I drew up (pending a second look by my lawyer when she gets back in town), I've included those sections aside from the "as long as your room remains..." I'll insert that. Thank you for pointing that out!!
One of the big reasons I came here for advice was I was at first worried that she might lawyer up. My grandfather had a saying that "It's easier to drag someone by the head if they have hair." Even though I think I would clearly win and have her successfully evicted if she ignores the notice, in the end it would cause me headaches and possible financial costs (though I believe I am legally able to recover most of the costs if I win).
I'm not very confident she will be truthful if I serve it alone (she may say I never did), even though in the law it states I may post-and-mail. As for a witness, wouldn't a sheriff serving the notice be considered a witness also, in addition to adding another instance to the paper trail in case I need the documentation in court? Or would a sheriff serving the notice be too strong a statement?
Basically my business relationship with her in regards to renting the room is no longer salvageable because she won't respond to reasonable discussion. I can't say much about our personal relationship either, as she is not that easy to get along with.
let your lawyer write the letter and you approve it .. and yes have the sheriff serve her.. all you have to do when she is served is put up your hand and say firmly ""TALK TO THE LAWYER" she is gonna scream and rant bloody murder at you if she can.... ( and everyone else around her as well ) but you can and should silence her with the talk to the lawyer comment and then walk away from her or turn your back and ignore her .. .. it saves you upset and anger if you can deflect her ravings with that .. are you able to deal with the next 60days of strife ?.. because she is gonna do that to win" yeh win in her mind will be the object not thinking of the long term of .. bad rental/landlord referances ..
also have you told her politely that if she doesn't like how you run YOUR house she can certainly find a new place to rent in the next 30 days ... you would be happy to give her a reference if she does it asap? yes I am being snide but yanno .. fair warning to her that your at the end of your rope with her ways
Last edited by Faworki1947; 09-10-2017 at 07:19 AM..
Reason: added a thought ..
My patience has run out on my tenant who rents a room from me because she's obnoxious, feels entitled, and making up fake lawyers and fake laws to not to subtly try to threaten me and reduce my rights as her landlord so she can live in a shared home as if she's in an apartment. I want to get rid of her legally ASAP.
You're the property manager regardless if you own it. Your parents own it and you are their representative.
How the heck do you do that and ensure tenants are not claiming they "did not know" or that "it wasn't in the lease?"
If it's not stated in a lease it falls under the state law requirements. So let's assume that you have no notice clause in your lease. It's covered under the state law requirement for notices. Those requirements are the minimum set standards for renting laws.
This is definitely a learning experience for me. Personally before I owned, I had landlords from hell who harassed their tenants and thought that I can work things out with others amicably when I was the landlord. I thought wrong
Mostly you can. It just depends what type of renter you get. Some are unreasonable, crazy, antisocial, and some are reasonable people. Just like Landlords
I figured that having the sheriff serve the notice would take care of a few birds with one stone. Namely, ensure she can't claim that I had incorrectly served the notice as the sheriff would be the witness and have a record for the Superior Court. Secondly to send a not-to-subtle signal that I mean serious business and I'm not willing to have another back-and-forth with her again.
You don't need a sheriff to serve notice. Just send it certified mail. Make sure the correct timeline for the notice is given.
Personally I think she's bluffing because tbh she's full of cow crap. She's lost every fight she's ever been in... for example during her time here she went through 3-4 jobs probably, and lost all of them because she was the little light bulb in the room who thought it smart to challenge her supervisors and managers without proof or support from colleagues. Usually over dumb stuff such as feeling entitled or "everyone else is stupid."
Who cares. Don't make it personal. Here us the thing. I do not get involved in my tenants private lives. I don't care what they do as long as it doesn't involve my property or the payment. I'm friendly with my tenants but I'm not friends with my tenants. Once you cross that line it's very hard to get back. So don't cross it.
I'll be turning a deaf ear and keeping records of any texts or emails she's sent me. I always respond professionally and firmly, but her half of the thread consists of rants and bringing up irrelevant issues. I'm planning to hold on serving the notice for now though until my lawyer gets back before the end of the month so my lawyer can OK the notice I drew up. I will also contact the sheriff and find out how much lead time do I need to give them to hire their services.
In the notice I drew up (pending a second look by my lawyer when she gets back in town), I've included those sections aside from the "as long as your room remains..." I'll insert that. Thank you for pointing that out!!
One of the big reasons I came here for advice was I was at first worried that she might lawyer up. My grandfather had a saying that "It's easier to drag someone by the head if they have hair." Even though I think I would clearly win and have her successfully evicted if she ignores the notice, in the end it would cause me headaches and possible financial costs (though I believe I am legally able to recover most of the costs if I win).
Receiving a court ordered judgement does not in any way mean you will recover costs. It just means you got a judgement. If she refuses to leave yes you will have costs associated with getting her out. Not only loss of rent but recovery of the money.
I'm not very confident she will be truthful if I serve it alone (she may say I never did), even though in the law it states I may post-and-mail. As for a witness, wouldn't a sheriff serving the notice be considered a witness also, in addition to adding another instance to the paper trail in case I need the documentation in court? Or would a sheriff serving the notice be too strong a statement?
It's best to send a termination of lease with certified mail. If she refuses acceptance it will come back to you. Don't open it. Keep it for the court date. If she stays past the notice timeline it's also unlawful detainer.
Basically my business relationship with her in regards to renting the room is no longer salvageable because she won't respond to reasonable discussion. I can't say much about our personal relationship either, as she is not that easy to get along with
Again. Keep the personal stuff away. My relationship with tenants is strictly business. They pay rent on time, i repair and maintain the properties. When we decide that relationship is no longer working we part ways.
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Bold
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