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Location: Monterey Bay, California -- watching the sea lions, whales and otters! :D
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I promised not to post anymore, but I do want to post it for all to see that I am not referring to any one person here, in particular.
Livecontent has fully described his situation, AND the many creative ways that he has for going about independently and self-sufficiently. I am referring to the outright frauds I know (and, unfortunately, I do know them).
That's all. I just find it disturbing that fraud is so prevalent, and I do know doctors who sign even though they don't have to.....
It's just a peeve of mine when I see it so often. If I weren't exposed to it, I probably wouldn't realize the extent of it, and wouldn't say anything.
Sorry for the rather harsh post, but there is truth to it, and I was not pointing the finger toward any one person here. Just wanted to clear that up! Thanks!
I wasn't going to post in this thread, because it's impossible to persuade anyone who holds such stereotypical beliefs that what they believe is not based in fact. I could post links to SSA stats until I'm blue in the face and it won't matter. My observations are limited to Social Security only. I have had the opportunity to review SSA disability claim files and recommend approval or denial of a claim. I have also drafted numerous decisions. In my opinion, the mental claims are the worst. I can cite several jobs that someone who has lost a limb can perform, but I cannot cite one job that can be performed by someone whose mental impairment prevents him or her from following simple directions for 8 hours/day, 40 hours per week. Mental illness may or may not be amenable to treatment (assuming a claimant even has access to treatment) This is why medical records are required to support the claims (not merely an assertion by a physician that the patient cannot work) and why few folks win on a mental impairment alone. I only deal with hard evidence, not anecdotal evidence.
I would also like to point out, that in my experience, the folks who complain the loudest about others receiving unearned benefits, have often received (or were denied) public benefits. Wisteria, I think you're great - but you have stated that you intend to apply for subsidized housing because you may not be able to otherwise afford to remain in your beloved Santa Cruz. Thus, you hope the taxpayer will come to your rescue. OldCoder, I believe you placed your mother in a nursing home, at taxpayer expense. I don't see anyone here jumping all over either of you, but those of us who are taxpayers could justifiably do so. I choose not to do so because it is not my place to determine who is or is not worthy of receiving any given benefit.
my apologies to the OP for his thread going off track, but a couple of responses to Wisteria's long and thoughful post have been brewing...I will try to make this this my last comment here about the sidetrack topic of disability, promise
I become livid with people collecting disability, especially for things that many people live with on a daily basis.
Anyone who has a legitimate disability (or thinks he may have) may, in the US, apply for help through disability benefits. They just have to apply and have their case accepted thorugh qualified SS doctors. A person’s personal doctor does not make the decision. Their reports are called upon, but SS makes the decision. (those on this thread with exp, such as Lenora, can support this)
If some disabled folks choose to ‘live with’ their inability (or their ability) to work and not get benefits, that is their choice and in no way reflects the legitimacy of those who do apply to receive benefits.
I almost lost my job once when I left a very impolite voicemail for someone who was supposed to be at home with a "serious" back injury -- but they weren't there. Come on, if you're going to fake it, at least be in bed!!
As I stated earlier, and I could be wrong but don’t think I am, you do not have to be confined to bed or be using overt equipment assistance to be disabled (as in being able to do your former work or some kind of possible work that your condition allows) This is what I meant in my last post by “appearances.”
it just makes me angry when I hear of people getting disability with for all kinds of disorders (especially things -- maybe I shouldn't list them so I don't offend people) but especially mental-supposed disorders that LOTS of people have! The only difference is, these people didn't WANT to work, and found a doctor who would sign to put them on disability and now they are happy as a lark!
The judgement as I understand it is not about whether someone has “enough” of a severe mental disability or not, but about whether that disability/condition impedes one’;s ability to work in any capacity that their condition could possibly allow. It would appear to be a gross generalization to assume that these people “don’t want to work.” For some this may be true, for many not.
A person’s doctor does not make the decision. Their reports are called upon, but it is the experts at SS make the decision.
There ARE morals involved here. I know someone who got disability for Post Traumatic Disorder -- for something exaggerated and made up.
How can one know this in another?
I cannot tell you how upsetting it is to see someone who actually has a lot of family money, getting those monthly checks, going to expensive concerts, buying organic foods, living in their own house, and the list goes on and on, while I, who would not have the lack of integrity to even think of doing something like that, nor do I feel entitled, has to scrimp and save and be careful of every single penny! Oh, I have seen it!!
Having family money, going to concerts, buying organic foods, living in their own house has nothing to do with whether one deserves disability. Twenty years ago I assisted a gentlemen who was delivered to the concert hall on a stretcher with an IV pole. He had to be admitted by law, it was a publicly owned place. I doubt that this music-loving, severely disabled person could have worked in any way shape or form. Also, many people choose organic foods to help them maintain whatever health they have left, or even to help improve their condition. My hat is off to these people, as they are not leeching off the medical system taking expensive drugs paid for by insurance or the govt but taking respsonsiblity for their own lives as best they can. Living in one’s own house? Is there a rule that to be disabled one cannot do that? And how does family money help? Disability insurance is not a govt handout to the poor.
The way the DSM IV is designed for "mental illnesses," frankly, anyone could fit into any one of those categories. We ALL have problems. It's just that some of us actually work while we HAVE those problems. It is called LIFE!
While there is something to be said for this view, it is the severity of the disability and the individaul’s ability to handle it in relation to a responsbile job that is the issue. What one person may be able to do, with a given disease or health issue, may well not be the same as what another with the same problem is capable of. One young man I know with CP can dictate and use a computer to some extent (one could imagine him earning some money someday, if his condition doesn’t wosren).Others with CP cannot do this at all. Only qualfied medical professionals can make this determination and I believe testing is involved.
That's it, from my humble perspective. Back to the OP....
Last edited by RiverBird; 08-22-2010 at 02:55 PM..
Location: Monterey Bay, California -- watching the sea lions, whales and otters! :D
1,918 posts, read 6,788,239 times
Reputation: 2708
Quote:
lenora :
I would also like to point out, that in my experience, the folks who complain the loudest about others receivg unearned benefits, have often received (or were denied) public benefits. Wisteria, I think you're great - but you have stated that you intend to apply for subsidized housing because you may not be able to otherwise afford to remain in your beloved Santa Cruz. Thus, you hope the taxpayer will come to your rescue. OldCoder, I believe you placed your mother in a nursing home, at taxpayer expense. I don't see anyone here jumping all over either of you, but those of us who are taxpayers could justifiably do so. I choose not to do so because it is not my place to determine who is or is not worthy of receiving any given benefit.
Yes, this is true and good points. Like I said, I am not pointing to people here; it is a general rant. And, I, too, am also one of those 40+ years taxpayers! My jobs just did not pay a lot -- the income level here is based on the cost of living here -- it varies from place to place. And I'm not against relocating, as my posts indicate. When the time comes, we'll see what happens. At this point in time, I'm staying where I am, so no worries other taxpayers, I'm not on the dole!
It's a peeve, yes. But I am referring to people we already know are defrauding the system -- and it is more prevalent. I know people in their twenties -- yes twenties -- who are actually calculating how to do this. It's appalling to me. My former friend who got half a million dollars did so based on something "medical," however, she, too, was out doing all kinds of physical activities that one would not be doing with a "real" injury as she claimed she had....
We could say that NO retiree should receive Social Security benefits at retirement! Those are our taxes, too -- my taxes pay for mine, AND they pay for others', too! We have to use common sense when talking about this. Mine is about fraudulent, intentional abuse that is much more common now. That is all. And there are many, many people who do persevere in spite of difficulties. Honestly, if people interviewed every person at my place of employment, I do think a good majority would fit the criteria for benefits. We have people who have truly had tragic lives -- but you would not know unless you knew their story. And I do know people who have calculated their disability benefits and are quite proud of that. It's creepy to me, but it is true.
So, yes, it is taxpayer money, and I have been a taxpayer for well over 40+ years, but I don't think of that part when I'm thinking of the abuse. I think more in terms of the morals of it. I have a hunch that is what OldCoder may be referring to, also.
My dad lost his home -- it all went to the nursing home. Maybe in the old days before Medicaid/Medicare they just shot the person when they could not longer "afford" to keep them around. My dad had to lose his house first to pay for the nursing home -- he worked well over 40+ years, too -- does that make him not worthy of it?? When there are "benefits" in place that we pay into, and it is available, AND we are legitimately eligible, then, I think we should do that. I am talking about FRAUD.
Do you think my dad wanted to lose his home? Do you think that his years of struggle, working in a steel plant to get the little place he had he wanted to give to the government?? Obviously, no. But he did. He lost it ALL. Now, when that money runs out, they could take him out and shoot him, I guess -- but I don't think they do that anymore -- they just take everything he has ever worked for his entire life and confiscate it. Does he legitimately have Alzheimer's? Yes. Can he no longer care for himself -- no, he can't. He couldn't even find his way back to the house -- he "forgot" where he lived and the police had to get him back. But now he has NOTHING after working his entire life since he was 14 years old... NOTHING...but a nursing home that is paid for by his entire life's savings, his home, his S.S., every single thing he has. But I know people on SSD who keep everything. Why is that so different??
Yes, there is resentment there, and rightfully so. The laws are very screwed up. And fraud IS out there, and more than, apparently, people think. So, yeah, it is a pet peeve of mine. I'm a hard worker, too -- and frankly, if I'm going to lose my mind someday, too, I'd rather get rid of my home first and go into low-income housing -- it's a preventative thing. And it's something I paid into most of my life.
There are many, many stories out there. But there are also people who really are lazy and feel entitled -- and, unfortunately, I do know some of those. The work ethic is not like it used to be.
For those who absolutely deserve, then, yes, it is the right thing. I just wish the ones who cheat the system were caught more often....
I responded to a private message from Wisteria and I have decided to make it public because it expands on my views:
I knew that. I was just giving you a hard time because you seem to be bothered by the fakers. There are not as many as you think because the system is really difficult to fool. Do not forget that your judgment is only based on cursory observation. The people who run these programs have years of experience and I am sure they have seen it all.
Sure, there are people who fool the system. In all areas of life, that happens, especially in the working world. But what are you going to do?
Can people allege cognitive and mental impairment and claim the inability to work? Yes, and that is the biggest issue but the system looks at longitudinally cause and effects.
You cannot just apply and say I cannot work--you would have to have historical work and medical evidence, if there was not a clearly defined cause for the impairment. That would mean you would have to not have worked and been impaired for a number of years or had multiple episodes. That is a very difficult and trying process with less income or no income. Someone who would go intentionally through that effort may be indeed mentally disabled.
It sound like I understand the system. Well, I have been ill for 15 years. Can I lose disability now--I doubt it because I am over 60 and my disease is clinically measurable and evidently observable.
Livecontent
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisteria
Hi Livecontent,
Sorry you took my post to maybe mean you -- from what you have described you sound very legitimate. I am referring to outright frauds (of which, unfortunately, I know many).
You sound very resourceful, unlike many people! Please accept my apologies if you thought I might have referred to you...I didn't. You have clearly explained your situation, and also given much information on how you deal with it, and the many creative ways you survive. To me, that is admirable!
I'm sorry it came out that way -- I know people who DO deserve it ... unfortunately, I don't know many who do...
I thought the DMS V was still a work in progress?? You can see I haven't bought the latest version if it's out... Oh well. I'm working in Probation now, anyway, so I'm not in my last field of social work. Law Enforcement is a bit different, as you can imagine -- but Probation is still a form of social work because a lot of it involves rehabilitation!
Again, I hope you understand my post was a very large encompassing post -- I in no way inferred that you, personally, were one of those. You sound pretty independent for what you have described, and that's what I'm talking about in terms of those who deserve it. I'm sure you know the kinds I'm referring to who don't....
Anyway, again, my apologies -- I certainly was not pointing my finger toward you!
I promised not to post anymore, but I do want to post it for all to see that I am not referring to any one person here, in particular.
Livecontent
...That's all. I just find it disturbing that fraud is so prevalent, and I do know doctors who sign even though they don't have to.....
It's just a peeve of mine when I see it so often. If I weren't exposed to it, I probably wouldn't realize the extent of it, and wouldn't say anything.
Sorry for the rather harsh post, but there is truth to it, and I was not pointing the finger toward any one person here. Just wanted to clear that up! Thanks!
In determining Social Security Disability, your own Medical Providers and Physicians are never asked, or is it permitted to ask, if you are disabled. Your personal provider can put in his treatment notes, his opinion, but it only only exist with supporting evidence.
Your providers are just asked to provide medical records--that is all. Disability determination is made, initially, by each individual State Board with the opinion of their own Physicians and Examiners.
OldCoder, I believe you placed your mother in a nursing home, at taxpayer expense.
My mother never saved any money. I could have quit my job and spent the money I saved by working in order to take care of her. I gave it a lot of thought. I didn't think it would be fair to ruin my own life just because my mother never saved. However, I did seriously consider it. But I realized that it would make me destitute, and then the taxpayers would have to support me, since I have no children to enlist as slaves. So looking at it objectively and practically, I decided to let the taxpayers support my mother, so they would not have to support me. My mother never had any aversion to getting help from the government, but I hate the idea.
It was a difficult dilemma, and I knew that some people would despise me for it. But all the choices were bad. I took the lesser of the evils.
Fraud is a reality and the taxpayers pay for it. I have personally known individuals on SS-disability who were physically able to work but mentally unable to sustain the continuity of a job. I don't know why ~ but there seems to be an increase in those conditions..... bipolar, high functioning autistic, etc.
Is mental illness, along with obesity, on the increase ? I wonder why !
Fraud is a reality and the taxpayers pay for it. I have personally known individuals on SS-disability who were physically able to work but mentally unable to sustain the continuity of a job. I don't know why ~ but there seems to be an increase in those conditions..... bipolar, high functioning autistic, etc.
Is mental illness, along with obesity, on the increase ? I wonder why !
Obesity, by itself, was removed from the social security manual of listed disabilities, a few years ago. Obesity can only be considered if it effects other physical systems and causes an impairment; just to be obese is not enough. That was done because, yes, obesity, was rising and the condition, itself, should not be considered a disability.
Mental Illness has the same determining factor. To say one has a mental impairment does not say that one cannot work. It has to effect job performance in the workplace or be sufficiently debilitating either by the effect, or the medications necessary to control the impairment.
Livecontent
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I wonder why !
