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If you read some of the stuff Taveras has sent out, that's not how they're doing it. He's already taken a 10% pay cut. He's cutting the mayor's office staff payroll by 10% for the next fiscal year. He's eliminating 13 non-union positions (some are currently vacant, but most are not), none of which pays under $80k (most are in the mid 90's, some 6 figures) for a savings of something like $1.7 million.
And that's just a small part of what's going to happen. I'm sure we're going to see taxes increase though, unfortunately.
Not sure what you mean "that's not how they're doing it", but I think we can expect hundreds of teachers to lose their jobs and some police and firefighters will have to go as well. The unfunded pensions are a huge issue as well. As Tavaras says, raises in taxes should be a last resort. Look at the CT forum, New Haven just cut 16 police.
Agree there are too many well paid administrators and political appointees- that fat really needs cutting!!
Here's what happened to Vallejo Ca- a very interesting scenario, and one that will likely be repeated across the country.
I couldn't help but think while reading this that right wing anti govt conservatives who think that govt is the route of all evil would actually be happy under the scenario of a paucity of employees in the public realm. I once knew a guy from Tx who didn't even believe in fire depts. He was of the opinion that if you couldn't afford a fire tax, your house should be left to burn... but that's another story...
When the foreclosure wave hit, local tax revenue evaporated. The city managers couldn’t make their budget and eliminated financing for the local museum, the symphony and the senior center. The city begged the public-employee unions for pay cuts — all to no avail.
...
Hamtramck, Mich., a small city within Detroit’s borders, says it could run out of money next month. Hamtramck has only 90 employees, yet it is saddled with the pensions and health care obligations of 252 retirees.
That's the problem right there. The towns tax revenue took a dive due to the economy, and the public employee unions would not budge. In the private sector, there would have been layoffs.
I've noticed a trend on the RI board, you guys like to use the term "right wingers" "right wing extremist" etc. Maybe some of us are nothing more than constitutionalists who don't believe in big government, but do believe in freedom and liberty and personal responsibility.
There is a role for government, but it's limited. What we have today are jackpot jobs where people can't be laid off, cake walk positions, above average pay, benefits galore and golden parachute pensions that are unsustainable.
It's out of balance and needs to be corrected. That's all. I hardly find that "right wing extremism"...if anything I'd call it Yankee Frugality.
Not sure what you mean "that's not how they're doing it", but I think we can expect hundreds of teachers to lose their jobs and some police and firefighters will have to go as well. The unfunded pensions are a huge issue as well. As Tavaras says, raises in taxes should be a last resort. Look at the CT forum, New Haven just cut 16 police.
Hundreds of teacher will lose their jobs. They're expecting to close 4-6 schools too.
What I meant was in response to the high paid administrators keeping their jobs and their pay while lower paid people don't (someone else posted it). It's not how Taveras is doing it, as I stated in my post. 13 highly paid positions have been eliminated and he took a paycut himself and is cutting the payroll of his own office.
I'd like to see the city council speak up. They've been pretty quiet on this issue, and they're partly to blame, allowing Cicilline (who is really to blame) to continue as he did (can't believe I actually voted for him for his second term).
While raises in taxes should be a last resort, it's going to happen. It's inevitable. I don't think the city unions will offer enough concessions.
quote: "It's out of balance and needs to be corrected. That's all. I hardly find that "right wing extremism"...if anything I'd call it Yankee Frugality".
Yes, agree, but that's one half the equation because cities and towns have lost their pension funds in the investment crash. Now they can't meet their obligations (too high to begin with, true) while corporations have gone nuts hoarding profits and distributing enormous bonuses to traders. The banks are sitting on several trillion of undistributed bail out money- and the working man and small business man across the country is taking the fall for all of it.
That's called right wing extremism, not Yankee frugality. Wall St cares nothing about frugality, that's only for peons.
This new frugality affects 90% of us (the top % are richer than ever and are still getting the tax cuts ). We will have a long road to get back to the center where the middle class can thrive again.
quote: "It's out of balance and needs to be corrected. That's all. I hardly find that "right wing extremism"...if anything I'd call it Yankee Frugality".
Yes, agree, but that's one half the equation because cities and towns have lost their pension funds in the investment crash. Now they can't meet their obligations (too high to begin with, true) while corporations have gone nuts hoarding profits and distributing enormous bonuses to traders. The banks are sitting on several trillion of undistributed bail out money- and the working man and small business man across the country is taking the fall for all of it.
That's called right wing extremism, not Yankee frugality. Wall St cares nothing about frugality, that's only for peons.
This new frugality affects 90% of us (the top % are richer than ever and are still getting the tax cuts ). We will have a long road to get back to the center where the middle class can thrive again.
I am by no means a right winger. I lean far left of center on most issues. What you're talking about isn't the same thing he's talking about. I think he's getting into libertarianism, which isn't exactly right wing, and certainly isn't the Tea Party. Assuming that's what he means, he would have been against those bail outs (as I most certainly was, public funding should not prevent private corporations from failing, the "too big to fail" thing is a myth).
Something that kept showing up in my Facebook feed:
"A CEO, tea partier, and union worker were sitting at a table. They were given a dozen cookies. The CEO takes 11 of them and says to the tea partier, 'the union guy wants a piece of your cookie.'"
The corporate executives who caused their companies to fall into such financial hardships continued to make millions in salary and had the gall to pay out million dollar bonuses to people who also helped cause the financial problems their companies faced.
I also have problems with the unions. Unfortunately, the government cannot control how much corporate execs get paid, even though they should have put some serious restrictions on the bail out money, such as making the corporations pay it all back with interest. The government does control how much public employees get paid. Those employees are paid directly with taxpayer dollars. The government has to balance the ability to pay those employees and keep taxes low while offering quality services to the taxpayers.
Providence services are pretty bad these days. The parks are a mess, the streets are worse than the dirt roads of Vermont, trash and recycle pickup is awful (do you know how much litter is caused by the garbage men?), the schools are doing poorly.... the list goes on. Meanwhile, the union workers in this city are sitting pretty. They get nice pensions. The ones who have been in the job the longest don't have to worry about layoffs because they can just bump the new guys. They get away with just about anything. Wasn't there a recent case of a retired police officer collecting his pension after being convicted of a felony? How about the police lieutenants who were caught in a scheme stealing paid vacation and sick time and were put on PAID suspension? Then there's the public works supervisor who brought his employees and city-owned equipment to his own house to do some personal work for him... ON CITY TIME. All of those people should have lost their jobs and their pensions, regardless of how long they've served the city.
While I lean pretty far to the left, I don't believe that there is a need for unions in the public sector. OSHA takes care of most of the reasons unions were started to begin with. The clauses in the contracts of our unions are ridiculous and do little but hold the strong workers back from working to their full potential and keep the lazy workers from working harder.
America and its people have always leaned conservative, so thank god for the left for keeping things sane, and keeping things American. Leave it to the right wingers and we would be like Mexico or countless other third-world countries, where the standard of living is poor, except for all but those in power, and crime and corruption is truly rampant. Hitler surely knew how to pull the wool over the eyes of the ignorant, as have countless other dictators.
Europeans have learned from their mistakes though, war and suffering will do that- Anyone who has ever stepped foot in Europe now, knows how retarded America is in so many ways- surely they have problems too, but the way of life there is so much better for everyone, for the poor, the middle class, and the rich. Not to say I don't love America, my decendants led the fight for its independance in NH and MA, which is more than what most American's can say. But quality of life is what it's all about as we spend our time on earth, and by the way, please correct me if I'm mistaken, but there are no socialist countries in Western Europe, just people who trust that they pay taxes and get something for it, or at least used to. That's what gov't is for- yet so many fat Americans sit in their pajamas all day, and complain about things, and spend their money on crap that profits the most un-free countries like China, not to mention clog the arteries of our health care system.
Last edited by Saltatrix; 03-05-2011 at 10:21 AM..
quote: "It's out of balance and needs to be corrected. That's all. I hardly find that "right wing extremism"...if anything I'd call it Yankee Frugality".
Yes, agree, but that's one half the equation because cities and towns have lost their pension funds in the investment crash. Now they can't meet their obligations (too high to begin with, true) while corporations have gone nuts hoarding profits and distributing enormous bonuses to traders. The banks are sitting on several trillion of undistributed bail out money- and the working man and small business man across the country is taking the fall for all of it.
That's called right wing extremism, not Yankee frugality. Wall St cares nothing about frugality, that's only for peons.
This new frugality affects 90% of us (the top % are richer than ever and are still getting the tax cuts ). We will have a long road to get back to the center where the middle class can thrive again.
I think you are misguided and not making the distinction between PUBLICLY funded jobs through FORCED taxation and private enterprise which can not come to your door and make a withdrawl from your pocket.
That is the 800lb gorilla in the room. Government has hurt me and my business more than anyone. I've never had a rich person or corporation debit my bank account...but the government has. I am middle class, and the government right now is my problem. "Rich" citizens and local companies keep putting money into my account...call me crazy.
BTW, I was against all bailouts so don't bother going there.
quote: "private enterprise which can not come to your door and make a withdrawl from your pocket."
When municipalities invest their funds (including taxes and pension contributions of state and city workers) in the stock market and in other financial investments and when these crash or go low, it does affect the communal pocket in terms of unfunded liabilities because then your taxes go up.
Private enterprise is very much affecting taxation, especially when certain entities go untaxed like churches or get big tax breaks.
I am by no means a right winger. I lean far left of center on most issues. What you're talking about isn't the same thing he's talking about. I think he's getting into libertarianism, which isn't exactly right wing, and certainly isn't the Tea Party. Assuming that's what he means, he would have been against those bail outs (as I most certainly was, public funding should not prevent private corporations from failing, the "too big to fail" thing is a myth).
That's pretty good. And yes, I'm not a member of the Tea Party.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunawayJim
Something that kept showing up in my Facebook feed:
"A CEO, tea partier, and union worker were sitting at a table. They were given a dozen cookies. The CEO takes 11 of them and says to the tea partier, 'the union guy wants a piece of your cookie.'"
LOL That's pretty funny, in a sad kind of way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunawayJim
Providence services are pretty bad these days. The parks are a mess, the streets are worse than the dirt roads of Vermont, trash and recycle pickup is awful (do you know how much litter is caused by the garbage men?), the schools are doing poorly.... the list goes on. Meanwhile, the union workers in this city are sitting pretty. They get nice pensions. The ones who have been in the job the longest don't have to worry about layoffs because they can just bump the new guys. They get away with just about anything. Wasn't there a recent case of a retired police officer collecting his pension after being convicted of a felony? How about the police lieutenants who were caught in a scheme stealing paid vacation and sick time and were put on PAID suspension? Then there's the public works supervisor who brought his employees and city-owned equipment to his own house to do some personal work for him... ON CITY TIME. All of those people should have lost their jobs and their pensions, regardless of how long they've served the city.
While I lean pretty far to the left, I don't believe that there is a need for unions in the public sector. OSHA takes care of most of the reasons unions were started to begin with. The clauses in the contracts of our unions are ridiculous and do little but hold the strong workers back from working to their full potential and keep the lazy workers from working harder.
Well said. That's pretty much what I meant by saying things are simply out of balance and need a correction. No agenda, just reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saltatrix
Europeans have learned from their mistakes though, war and suffering will do that- Anyone who has ever stepped foot in Europe now, knows how retarded America is in so many ways-
As someone who is first generation American (And proud to be), who goes back very often, can call family in Europe right now just to say "hi" I can say with a clear conscience that you are the clueless one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree
quote: "private enterprise which can not come to your door and make a withdrawl from your pocket."
When municipalities invest their funds (including taxes and pension contributions of state and city workers) in the stock market and in other financial investments and when these crash or go low, it does affect the communal pocket in terms of unfunded liabilities because then your taxes go up.
Sooo when the rest of us lose money in an investment, we lick our wounds and move on...but when it happens to government, the are still guaranteed the same return via heavier taxation? Must be nice. I can tell, you've never been served with a tax warrant or had a tax levy. It's eye opening the power and authority the IRS and DRS has over you. They will RUIN you and not think twice or show remorse worse than a mafia gangster. Ask me how I know.
I have an idea, how about public sector workers invest in their own retirement just like the private sector.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree
Private enterprise is very much affecting taxation, especially when certain entities go untaxed like churches or get big tax breaks.
Running out of options and going for the easy punch? Churches? Really? Yea, all those rogue churches out there are the problem and cause of high taxation. ROFL.
Last edited by JViello; 03-05-2011 at 07:41 PM..
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