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Some of the worst poverty you will find in the U.S. is on Indian Reservations that can be found in 30+ states, including states not normally associated with poverty, like CA, OR, WA, and Alaska.
The town of Metlakatla is the only place in Alaska that has reservation status. The average yearly income is a bit lower than the rest of the state, but it is not at poverty level.
Scapegoat harnesses, complete absolution of personal responsibility for only $3 mill.
My recap was pointing to the absurdity of misplaced blame. When I'm mad at the price of gas, it's NOT rational to blame the hindu gas attendant. Anyone wants to blame me, it won't improve their life, nor change mine.
The norfolk vs csx is not a hatfield and mccoy, they're competitors of an entire eastern region that covers both north and south inclusive. Historical context of railroad industry- Airplanes, cars and a century of cannibalism had the largest fiscal impacts. Today, if Newport news is under utilized, I didn't decide that for Virginia. Commerce and the state of Virginia decided that and it was appropriate that I didn't get a vote.
But we aren't talking about trains. We're talking about how Frankie and yourself, both individuals, have directed blame at an entire population of people called the north, so for today, I AM the north. Lets look each other in the eye here, OK? My name is Kelley.
We're talking about how my 'charmed' existence was provided for by robbing the fiscal health of all southerners, whom I'll now call Harry. Research out of my class? Sir, if you only knew you'd be laughing at yourself for your presumptions. I may be a world traveler, but at no time has it been a first class ticket. Stepping outside my 'class', I've observed that money/power is loyal only to money/power. Elite of the world fall in line to that cadence of lifestyle. It's not something I'd aspire to be, but it's available to anyone willing to contort themselves worshiping a golden calf. No point in judging anyone, or allowing envy to make you an ingrate, because no matter what you choose, there's a very real price for that decision.
I didn't make your life or Frankies. I don't own anybody, and if you insist on blaming me, I think it's only fair I should get credit for everything you've accomplished your whole life too. Can I blame Harry & Frankie for 2,000 yrs of legalized oppression of women? Where's my reparation check? Should the south feel the need, they can always petition the law claiming minority status and create an affirmative action program. I wouldn't insult my brothers in such a way by signing my name.
I'm not the one who looks at the south and sees backwards. That's coming from a group of southerners who have a low opinion of themselves and demand everyone agree. He who obliges them gets a chance to exploit them, perpetuating a cycle. My money is where my mouth is- I moved south, and if you don't want me as your neighbor, oh well. I have no complaint about the south not developing economically after a northern template. In fact, that's a huge part of why I live here now. There are pockets of the south who've sold their souls for industry trying to feed their kids- how'd that work out for you?
Roads and rails were not constructed for charitable benefit of northern people, but sponsored for and by commerce & gov't serving their own needs. They'd just assume mow over a northerner than have their objectives diverted. Sound familiar? History of the world, the only ones who 'win' a war are the ones who profit from others misery. Seen in that light, the war in Iraq has already been won by OPEC. Anyone agrees or disagrees, it won't change a thing with exception of what we as individuals choose to feed.
"Competence doesn't count when only the elite get recognized." I couldn't agree more. I won't begrudge talent, but why is Michael Jordan worth more than a doctor? Who invented the computer and why did Bill Gates get all the credit? Why do American CEO's get the unprecedented paycheck over 500 times what the people making it physically happen get paid? Who decided these things? Not me, not my family, not the people I grew up with, and not my neighbors of last year. Was there a vote you and I missed on this subject?
Someday maybe you'll figure out that the same forces that kept limits on your ability to make a living were the very same that limited mine, and it's been true of every generation since the birth of this nation regardless of region. Personal beliefs and values you deny or embrace have more to do with your quality of life (and the price paid for it) than anything others choose to buy into.
Until that day, or when my royalty checks for your lifes work arrive, whichever comes first, I think it's best we just agree to disagree.
Nice response (not meant sarcasticly at all, just appreciating your debating skills). I'm not "blaming" anyone, however. I was just reciting history as I found it outside of the textbooks. One fact that I found interesting but didn't include is that Tennessee, home of the Tennessee Volunteers, gets lumped into the "poor rural south," even though it fought on the side of the union. I guess that should count as a point towards your side of the debate, but I'll counter that geography and generalizations contributed to that perception.
Do the current southerners have a low opinion of themselves? Not any of the ones I've met. What I have seen is a courtesy harkening back to what I remember in rural New England fifty years ago. What I have seen is an ability to let certain stereotypes wash over them and still maintain their balance. What I have seen is a group of people that have formed a common bond out of previous history.
So, as you suggest, I think we best agree to disagree, and enjoy life as we perceive it.
The town of Metlakatla is the only place in Alaska that has reservation status. The average yearly income is a bit lower than the rest of the state, but it is not at poverty level.
But don't forget the whole state is considered "Indian Territory" and while some of the village corporations have done well with their ANCSA settlements, not all of them have done so. Plus there is the matter of subsistence, which can certainly have an impact on what is spent on groceries.
Nice response (not meant sarcasticly at all, just appreciating your debating skills). I'm not "blaming" anyone, however. I was just reciting history as I found it outside of the textbooks. One fact that I found interesting but didn't include is that Tennessee, home of the Tennessee Volunteers, gets lumped into the "poor rural south," even though it fought on the side of the union. I guess that should count as a point towards your side of the debate, but I'll counter that geography and generalizations contributed to that perception.
Do the current southerners have a low opinion of themselves? Not any of the ones I've met. What I have seen is a courtesy harkening back to what I remember in rural New England fifty years ago. What I have seen is an ability to let certain stereotypes wash over them and still maintain their balance. What I have seen is a group of people that have formed a common bond out of previous history.
So, as you suggest, I think we best agree to disagree, and enjoy life as we perceive it.
Goodness Harry, West Virginia gets snipes from all sides, and it's lame, because they truly are wonderful salt of the earth people. I'm blessed to know them.
Sorry if I seem callous, or deaf to what you were saying. I'm not denying that people suffered. I just wish people could step outside their own story and see the bigger picture of ALL civilization; no one culture/group has been impervious to oppression. Beyond rightness and wrongness, beyond the depth of cruelty or scale of tragedy, there comes a time to let go of grieving and build. The south didn't curl up and die, they rebuilt in a way that suited their values. I see no flaw. I see people who kept what's important to them held high. That's a noble thing, something southerners rightfully take great pride. They don't have to put anyone else down to stand tall.
As for the select few who put down the south or the north... nobody has to lend them credence. It's all in their head. Hatred being what these folks hold high, no thanks, I'm having none of that, no matter who's selling. Life's too short to squander it on that nonsense.
I'm worried for america as a whole. Sink or swim, we're all in this together. I'm not an economist, but poverty wherever I've seen it happening in our borders has a few things in common. People who count on industry to provide a job for them are very succeptible. Entreprenuers do much better in similar circumstances, but not everyone has that skill set.
Smaller economies where there isn't lots of money circulating within it, or circulating too slowly, don't appear as fertile ground for business ventures. I think the internet being available to rural locations is changing the face of rural economies through niche markets/wider audience, but it will fall flat on it's face being used by people without business skills. If there would be any suggestion I'd make to community colleges, it would be courses in that subject.
The fair benchmark for poverty has to take into account variables of a local economy. The practical question is do they have the means to take care of their own? Cover a note and maintain their homes, transportation, provide medical care for their kids, etc. What's left in their hand after basic needs are covered? Can they send their kids to college? Can they contribute to the down payment on their kids first house?
I was born and raised in the NYC suburbs, lived in Charlotte for awhile but moved back for many reasons. Lack of jobs was one, mediocre schools was another.
To the poster who referred to the Northeast as "crumbling," I'm not sure why you think this. In small, suburban Connecticut alone, there are many fortune 500 companies, Hartford is the insurance capital of the world, and many Wall Street execs call the state home. New York isn't crumbling, Boston isn't either. Providence, Hartford, Philly and New Haven are all well-educated urban cities that are currently on the upswing.
From a northerners perspective, the reason why so many think the South is poor is because we see an abundance of trailer parks, beat up pick-up trucks, poorly funded schools and very little corporate office parks. There is not such a dense area of universities like the Northeast. In a 150 mile radius, you have the ivy league colleges of Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Princeton and Wesleyan. The more educated an area is, the higher the income.
The reason why Northerners and Westerners are being hired for good jobs over native southerners is because the transplants are more likely than not college educated with a masters degree. The percentage of college graduates is much higher in Northeastern states than in the South.
I'm not knocking the south because I enjoyed living there. It just wasn't for me, and I can see why people view it the way they do.
I am offended at the question of why the rural south is poor. I live in a rual county and it's wonderful. In Mississippi you have two kinds of people. the kind that want to have a decent livelyhood and the ones that don't. If a person choose to work and pruchase their land they are not poor. If a person chooses to work and pay rent then they are poor and mostly in poverty especially in rural areas. most people are not poor because they have no choice, they are poor because of bad choices they have made. My case and point. the average rate of pay in the rural south is very low compared to other places, but the cost of living is lower than a lot of other places too. I make less than 15 thousand a year and I'm single yet I own 62 acre of land and three rental houses all because I know how to save and buy smart. I own my own home and a new car that I bought and paid for with my good credit. I didn't acquire this overnight, I've been working since I was 18 now I'm 43 and I work 3 days a week and pursuing a college degree. Lots of young people make 3 times as much money as I yet they can't get up a hundred dollars on demand. Some of the poorest places and the worst living conditions are in the cities in the north and west. The next time you hear of a southerner living in a trailer in a rural community don't assume they are living in proverty. Most people own their mobil homes and a car to boot, without the 30 to 40 year mortage hanging over their heads and debt up to their eyeballs.
Well we just moved to NC a year ago and from what I've seen there is a great amount of wealth here. Yes, there is poverty too but not much more then I have seen in CA. This area is growing like crazy and people are bringing in their money from many areas to build or buy a home here. I guess it is good for the area in some ways but I personally like the smaller, quaint homes. We take drives all arount this state and are constantly amazed at some of the mansions out in the middle of nowhere. It seems many people here seem to be more modest and don't care to keep up with the "Joneses". I have heard rumors that the South is a poorer area but I personally don't see it here that much!! It's a different life, different pace different kind of people here it seems. Many spend great amounts of money on their farm equipment and land rather then on mansions!! Just my personal opinion!
"Seventy years ago the average income in America's South was $314 a year. In current dollars that would be about $4,400, meaning that southerners then were about as rich as the people of Botswana are today."
- The Economist Magazine, March 2007
I'd say that the south has come a long, long way since the great depression. Parts of the rural south still really are very poor, like most of the I-95 corridor of the Carolinas, or the Mississppi Delta. Those areas have no major cities, large tracts of undevelopable swampland, and a cycle of: few jobs -> weak tax base -> poor schools -> poor education -> few jobs
There are wealthy, affluent rural areas in the south that people have mentioned. What people have failed to mention is why those areas are affluent; for the most part, they are in close proximity to an urban area, so these "affluent rural areas" are more like exurban areas.
Last edited by anonymous; 02-27-2008 at 08:58 AM..
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Scapegoat harnesses, complete absolution of personal responsibility for only $3 mill.
