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There is an interesting thread on the city-data real estate forum about a PA township that is pushing the responsibility of rebuilding and maintaining an access bridge to a community onto the homeowners, who never knew the bridge was their responsibility. In that case the solution that the town offered costs about half of what each house cost. Read it and you be enlightened, and you will thank God you do not live in a PA township.
Can you link to this thread? Search, as often, is not friendly on this site.
If you look at the second quote in the post you are referencing here, you will see that I quoted another previous post of yours where you said the township gave you the specifications (which you quoted) of what it would take for them to take over maintenance of the road (and snow removal IS maintenance) but apparently your subdivision decided they did not want to accept that solution. It wasn't what you wanted to hear, but it is the same requirement as for all the other subdivisions in the township. So it wasn't done 20 years ago, it still needs to be done. And unless you can prove that this requirement is different than what is required of other subdivisions, you have no legitimate gripe.
The township DID offer a solution. The people in your subdivision CHOSE not to accept the solution even though it was very likely the only thing the township could legally offer.
It is NOT REQUIRED of other subdivisions...because other subdivisions were DONE RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE...it is NOT our fault the Township let the developer of this place off the hook, let him skip town, and never threw his butt in jail.
NO OTHER SUBDIVISION is faced with a $15,000 bill for each household just to have effing snow removed!
And if that is the only solution the township can offer...all the more reason we need a new Township!
I am on the side of the OP here because this situation is just typical of the dirty politics of the towns and townships of PA. I know it well, and I hate to admit it, as much as I like the state of PA. What other state has towns inside of towns inside of towns; sounds odd, but that is the way it is in PA. If William Penn could see the mess that was created by having all of these crooked local governments, he would roll over in his grave, and wish he had stayed in England.
You say the township offered a solution; how much would that solution have cost each affected homeowner? I estimate the cost was probably prohibitive. The real problem here is what happened years ago when these houses were built and the dirt road was put in. What obligations did the builder have to the town and to the new homebuyers, and what remedies did the town and the homeowners have if the builder did not fulfill his obligations? Those are the questions that matter, but it is kind of late to be addressing them. The town clowns will only offer the solution that costs the township the least amount of money, not what they can "legally offer". Legally they can do all kinds of things for these homeowners; they just don't want to put out the money. The OP needs to go to a higher authority, in this case their reps in Harrisburg.
There is an interesting thread on the city-data real estate forum about a PA township that is pushing the responsibility of rebuilding and maintaining an access bridge to a community onto the homeowners, who never knew the bridge was their responsibility. In that case the solution that the town offered costs about half of what each house cost. Read it and you be enlightened, and you will thank God you do not live in a PA township.
But had the original developer built the roads as he "should" have 20 years ago, the cost, although it would have been less, would still have been passed on to the purchasers of the lots in the subdivision. The developer does not just absorb those costs out of his or her pocket.
We have similar situations around here with subdivisions. The developer or the property owners are responsible for constructing the roads (and sewers and waterlines) to the specifications required by the governing body and then turning them over in order to have them maintained. If they don't do that, they are the responsibility of the subdivision to take care of.
As a taxpayer, I would be upset if "my" tax money was being used to pave and plow a "private" road.(and admit, even if it is being used by the public, if it has never been accepted as a dedicated public street, it is still a private road.)
It is NOT REQUIRED of other subdivisions...because other subdivisions were DONE RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE...it is NOT our fault the Township let the developer of this place off the hook, let him skip town, and never threw his butt in jail.
NO OTHER SUBDIVISION is faced with a $15,000 bill for each household just to have effing snow removed!
And if that is the only solution the township can offer...all the more reason we need a new Township!
If a new subdivision is built, do the roads have to be built to the same specifications as what you were given for your road?
I am on the side of the OP here because this situation is just typical of the dirty politics of the towns and townships of PA. I know it well, and I hate to admit it, as much as I like the state of PA. What other state has towns inside of towns inside of towns; sounds odd, but that is the way it is in PA. If William Penn could see the mess that was created by having all of these crooked local governments, he would roll over in his grave, and wish he had stayed in England.
You say the township offered a solution; how much would that solution have cost each affected homeowner? I estimate the cost was probably prohibitive. The real problem here is what happened years ago when these houses were built and the dirt road was put in. What obligations did the builder have to the town and to the new homebuyers, and what remedies did the town and the homeowners have if the builder did not fulfill his obligations? Those are the questions that matter, but it is kind of late to be addressing them. The town clowns will only offer the solution that costs the township the least amount of money, not what they can "legally offer". Legally they can do all kinds of things for these homeowners; they just don't want to put out the money. The OP needs to go to a higher authority, in this case their reps in Harrisburg.
There is an interesting thread on the city-data real estate forum about a PA township that is pushing the responsibility of rebuilding and maintaining an access bridge to a community onto the homeowners, who never knew the bridge was their responsibility. In that case the solution that the town offered costs about half of what each house cost. Read it and you be enlightened, and you will thank God you do not live in a PA township.
Exactly. The town never informed us of ANY RECOURSE we had against the developer...and even protected the developer when said developer kipped town...because he was part of the good-old-boy network.
The cost, indeed, is prohibitive...especially when things can be modified in the specs for our road which would DRAMATICALLY REDUCE the cost to each household...but the Township won't go for it. They have done EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to stand in our way, and make it impossible for us to get the services that they don't want to provide.
I guaran-goddamn-tee you that if our equivalent of a Mayor lived on this road, we would not be in this situation!
IN FACT...let me let you all in on a dirty little secret...
You may have heard of Rockne Newell. If not, Google him.
Last year he stormed a Township Meeting right here....and opened fire with automatic weapons. three people died in that tragedy at our Township Hall...less than 1/2 mile from where I live, as the bird flies.
This was because Rockne Newell was evicted from his property when the Township condemned it.
Admittedly it WAS an eyesore and in bad, rundown condition...the guy had no proper sanitation, there were even buckets of human waste strewn about this property. The Township really acted properly in this case.
HOWEVER...and this is what is NOT KNOWN outside of this little burg...
If Rockne Newell lived ANYWHERE ELSE in this town, they would have left him alone. He just had the bad luck that his property happened to abut the property of the Township Supervisor (our equivalent of Mayor) And THAT is why they went after him.
By the way, one of the people who died in that shooting was a Township Supervisor of a neighboring Township...and a man I knew personally.
If Rockne Newell had lived next door to me or my neighbors...and presented such a health hazard to US...the goddamn Township would not have given a shyt. And I know for a fact that's true.
How do I know it's true, you ask?
Well, before our good neighbors moved in next door...the neighbors from HELL lived there.
And they eventually got foreclosed on and left.
AND THE GODDAMN GRASS IN THE YARD WAS NECK-HIGH AND THE GODDAMN TOWN WOULD DO NOTHING ABOUT IT IN SPITE OF BEING A POTENTIAL HAZARD. You had no idea what might be hiding in that grass, and yeah, we got bears and stuff up here!
And THAT property abutted OUR property...not the Mayor's. Which is why the Town did not give a shyt.
And, NO...we could not, ourselves, go on that property and cut that grass, that would have been the equivalent of trespassing.
Eventually, we located the bank that held the paper on the house and complained for another TWO MONTHS before the grass was cut down.
Two months after THAT the place was bought by the neighbors we now have...the ones who have been very helpful to us throughout this situation. And we ARE now able to get out...and the oil truck DID make it in.
But had the original developer built the roads as he "should" have 20 years ago, the cost, although it would have been less, would still have been passed on to the purchasers of the lots in the subdivision. The developer does not just absorb those costs out of his or her pocket.
We have similar situations around here with subdivisions. The developer or the property owners are responsible for constructing the roads (and sewers and waterlines) to the specifications required by the governing body and then turning them over in order to have them maintained. If they don't do that, they are the responsibility of the subdivision to take care of.
As a taxpayer, I would be upset if "my" tax money was being used to pave and plow a "private" road.(and admit, even if it is being used by the public, if it has never been accepted as a dedicated public street, it is still a private road.)
The price of the lots did NOT go down as a result of the road not being built. We paid full price for our lot, which INCLUDED a paved road. We were stiffed, and the Township let the guy walk.
If a new subdivision is built, do the roads have to be built to the same specifications as what you were given for your road?
Yes. And the developer is responsible for building and paving the road initially. After which the Town maintains it.
That is what was SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN with our development. That was what we PAID FOR.
Then the developer skipped town. And the Township never went after him.
It was their obligation to do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by james777 There is an interesting thread on the city-data real estate forum about a PA township that is pushing the responsibility of rebuilding and maintaining an access bridge to a community onto the homeowners, who never knew the bridge was their responsibility. In that case the solution that the town offered costs about half of what each house cost. Read it and you be enlightened, and you will thank God you do not live in a PA township.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ki0eh
Can you link to this thread? Search, as often, is not friendly on this site.
I have tried desperately to find the thread, but to no avail. I will continue to search.
Why was it the Townships obligation to go after the builder? You and the other people who bought the lots and homes were the ones he screwed, not the Township. YOU should have gone after him. The buyers of the houses paid for the drive to be brought up to Township standards after the construction is finished then it is turned over to the Township. The work was never done, so it was never transferred over. Township has nothing lost or nothing gained at that point. The drive was NOT brought to their standards so they didn't take over maintenance of it as a road. The homeowners who paid and didn't get what they paid for SHOULD have gone after the developer, not the Township.
Why was it the Townships obligation to go after the builder? You and the other people who bought the lots and homes were the ones he screwed, not the Township. YOU should have gone after him. The buyers of the houses paid for the drive to be brought up to Township standards after the construction is finished then it is turned over to the Township. The work was never done, so it was never transferred over. Township has nothing lost or nothing gained at that point. The drive was NOT brought to their standards so they didn't take over maintenance of it as a road. The homeowners who paid and didn't get what they paid for SHOULD have gone after the developer, not the Township.
Exactly what I was wondering. But then it is becoming more and more common that people will not take responsibility for their situation. It is always easier to put it on someone else.
The township has nothing in this until such time as it is complete and turned over to them to maintain.
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