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African immigrants to the U.S. are among the most educated groups in the United States. Some 48.9 percent of all African immigrants hold a college diploma. This is more than double the rate of native-born white Americans, and nearly four times the rate of native-born African Americans.[11]
In 1997, 19.4 percent of all adult African immigrants in the United States held a graduate degree, compared to 8.1 percent of adult white Americans and 3.8 percent of adult black Americans in the United States, respectively. [12] Of the African-born population in the United States age 25 and older, 87.9% reported having a high school degree or higher,[13] compared with 78.8% of Asian-born immigrants and 76.8% of European-born immigrants, respectively.[14]
Africans from Nigeria (89.1 percent), Ghana (85.9 percent), Botswana (84.7 percent), and Malawi (83 percent) were the most likely to report having a high school degree or higher. Those born in Cape Verde (44.8 percent) and Mauritania (60.8 percent) were the least likely to report having completed a high school education.[15]
I know .. It's hard to believe someone with more pigment in their skin who comes from their homeland and has an identity/culture/language and a strong base can over achieve in this country vs. someone w/ similar amounts of pigment in their skin who were enslaved, destroyed, and treated like dirt for 100s of years that just got equal rights a generation ago...
Funny how this is.. How amazing, one can't even begin to understand why
I was referring to the fact that "overachieve" is generally a critical term, and not a positive one.
A critical term and not a positive one albeit a realistic one given what the ignorant tone of expectation is in this country (and in this thread) for a certain group of people just because they have more pigment in their skin...
So yes, it is 'overachieve' and it was used correctly in the context of the discussion.
Someone decides to be ignorant and make rude and callous remarks and you are shocked that someone replies in kind..
In any event, demonstrate to me how 100s of years of govt. sponsored action resulted in a broad based condition of impoverished white people and you too will find the justification for their inclusion in AA .. Given that there isn't such a case, feel free to create a separate program to help people based on socio-economic backgrounds .. But you have no right or justification bandwagoning on AA and questioning its validity just because it isn't the catchall for every issue in america. It was created for a reason and has a valid period of time which it needs to exist. It is not a monetary check .. it is a program w/ various faces that helps right past wrongs.. I address people in kind .. s2k decided to make smart/callous remarks regarding a whole race of people. I simply pointed out to him the relative comparison of his experience to that of a whole race in america. That is not condescending .. THat is a 'relative comparison'. If you don't like that a relative comparison results in the realization that your experience is of less in the broad scheme of things, that's your personal problem you have to deal with.
He described his experience w/o any context.. one that I had to provide after he decided to 'conveniently' leave it out .. Which served to further put his experience into perspective.. even after, he only decided to leak details and then wouldn't even answer my question because it further shows how weak his anecdote is ..
You want a govt. sponsored program to help the poor regardless of race, you are more than welcome to rally on washington and demand it .. However, there is a program that exist for a group of people this country screwed over and its justification stands alone and is an aside from whether every soul on earth is eligible for it.. That wasn't the intention of the program .. and no such program should open its doors wide open based on such anecdotes because that's the reason why such programs fail .. and fail big .. it's called : feature creep.
So, my remarks were in kind.. The busing program largely benefited white students .. The program was meant to help minorities .. A white student flips off the mouth and claims he was a victim of the program .. Excuse me for pointing out the absurdity of this.
I think it stands mentioning that it was principally white women who benefited from "gaming the system" as they were a marginalized population in comparison to white men. I agree 100% though that Affirmative Action has benefited whites far more than it has blacks, which the vast majority of people who are against it either aren't aware of or will not admit lest they be revealed for opposing it solely because in principal, it was supposed to rectify inequities of the past and present that blacks faced and continue to face. It's a complete farce that a program meant to aid blacks in overcoming the racial gap of the last 300 years ends up giving the group that historically oppressed them more aid. However, I don't think that 415 actually opposes the purpose of affirmative action. I think he was merely commenting that from his experience poor kids in general often do not get much recognition as a group in need of structural support, which is unsurprising given America's cultural hatred of the poor.
Your point is valid though... affirmative action was a program specifically created to aid African Americans overcome infrastructural racism, so its not correct to say that its existence is screwing over groups that do not face such obstacles.
...
As for blacks, they were mistreated in the past. Today, the majority of them lead middle and upper class lives - certainly not as much a Asians or whites. Enough, however, that I am not convinced that programs like affirmative action are necessary (or helping them any); or that their race's past mistreatment justifies discrimination in their favor today.
Define enough .... Just because you see a very small portion of African Americans rising up doesn't mean that it's 'enough'. The vast majority still aren't, has something to do with the adversity the parents of kids today faced 1 generation ago, and that's reflected in the #'s if you cared to really do research.. But you and others don't.. You see some well to do black people and that's 'enough' for you to say a program meant to help the vast majority that are still screwed up. It's 'enough' because you honestly don't care to do your research to know it isn't and discover something that goes against your more probable view which is that it shouldn't have existed in the first place.
I say this because, If you felt it should have existed in the first place and were informed on the matter, you would KNOW it's not 'enough'.
Oh hey, there is a well to do black person .. O.K everyone else (the majority) who are still screwed up .. one of you made it out it .. Games over.. I'm sorry but you all must be doing something wrong since you aren't doing well like this guy.
I think it stands mentioning that it was principally white women who benefited from "gaming the system" as they were a marginalized population in comparison to white men. I agree 100% though that Affirmative Action has benefited whites far more than it has blacks, which the vast majority of people who are against it either aren't aware of or will not admit lest they be revealed for opposing it solely because in principal, it was supposed to rectify inequities of the past and present that blacks faced and continue to face. It's a complete farce that a program meant to aid blacks in overcoming the racial gap of the last 300 years ends up giving the group that historically oppressed them more aid. However, I don't think that 415 actually opposes the purpose of affirmative action. I think he was merely commenting that from his experience poor kids in general often do not get much recognition as a group in need of structural support, which is unsurprising given America's cultural hatred of the poor.
415 #1 didn't point out the context for which he faced his treatment until i pointed it out for him.. and even then, I had to pry out more of the context (which highlighted the absurdity of his claim to being a victim) in order to more clearly frame what he was trying to say. At the onset, given this big omission of context, he was trying to argue that he was a victim of reverse racism that screwed over 'his group'.. When in fact the program, benefited largely his group .. I told him to cut the sh*t at the end because I knew from the exchange that he was trying to play games and posture a position from trying to weave a larger than life'victomhood' story that was irrelevant in the debate of AA. As I framed his case, it could (giving him the benefit of the doubt), be seen as his plee for the experience of poor kids ... <- giving him the benefit of the doubt... in which case, race didn't matter and had no relevance.
And to that I say, fine.. It's valid and its an entirely different debate... AA was intended to fix the history of slavery and unequal rights in America that was systematically sponsored by the govt. ... Note the big difference between this and poverty.... and as such, I don't want to hear about some side story (which at the onset was posturing against AA) until I called out the details of it... Poverty exists and is real all cross the world. It sets a lot of people back .. It deserves being addressed by our govt. ... But last I checked, the government systematically sponsored slavery/unequal rights of African Americans.. For that, they are responsible and liable to fix multiple generations of damage over multiple generations.. The fact that white women benefit from AA is due most specifically to 'feature creep' and someone interjecting side agendas into programs/bills.. Happens all the time and it usually destroys the original intention .. Which is what s2k was doing consciously/unconsciously... and I frankly didn't appreciate the coy manner in which he was trying to do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nineties Flava
Your point is valid though... affirmative action was a program specifically created to aid African Americans overcome infrastructural racism, so its not correct to say that its existence is screwing over groups that do not face such obstacles.
Exactly.. s2k (415) voiced openly that he felt it was and positioned himself and his case (which he omitted context for) as one of victimhood .. and for that I was not entertained. I've dealt w/ enough sly clowns like him in more structured/open debates which is why I cut him off rather quickly.
Your arguments border on anecdotes in which you try to argue generalist claims from specific cases...
In your specific cases, you highlight positive outcomes of all races except for African Americans and draw implicit claim to an inherent characteristic they hold that African Americans don't by 'begging the question'.
You underhandedly exclude and omit positive anecdotes for African Americans while highlighting negative anecdotes and move to broad general claims on it ..
You even make false claims that Latinos have come here and done great when in fact they haven't (they are by far doing the worse in America currently) ...
> This was in attempt to provide a further underhanded remark that there is just something wrong w/ African Americans other than the historical context of being slighted in this country.
You ignore historical context, omit it, and when it is presented flat out ignore it. You in no way have argued or justified why it has no relevance a generation after and 100s of years of setbacks. You just ignore the point.. This establishes your willful ignorance...
You exhibit through your mischaracterization of AA that you don't fully even understand what it is ...
You make claims.. one sentence statements and don't even back up your claims "Affirmative Action has outlived its usefulness." <- that is one post from you..
Here is your 'careful' selection of 'anecdotes' :
Here you have made a specific claim and attempt to move to a generalist claim. Given what you responded to, you are making an implicit statement that those that don't achieve this are not 'willing to focus on their goals'.. This is known as : begging the question...
Here is more of you on display
Yeah because that's how everyone who is black gets in .. Also, I think there is AA for grades too .. so ofc, if you happen to be black and get good grades (once given the chance/opportunity).. it's probably because of AA too..
and more of you 'begging the question' :
I'd go on but I don't have time for closet racists.. You're Asian... you think you're special because the majority of your kind came to this country under great conditions .. Highly skilled were carefully selected to come here .. and due to a recent measure of your success vs. others think its because you're better than everyone.. You think even though we all weren't given the same start.. That the same outcome should be expected of us all .. And you feel African Americans coming off of 100s of year's of government sponsored hell don't deserve government sponsored programs to ensure they get back to equal footing in this country. You cite anecdotal cases of some latino excelling and claim that is the general trend (when in fact it is not ) .. Latinos place at the bottom in this country in terms of achievement .. By way of using anecdotes in an attempt to go from specific to general coupled with omission ... you make an implicit claim there isn't a black student doing the same .. and that speaks for the broader general group ..
Your'e an ignorant racist and are carefully trying to skirt clearly being displayed as such by playing games of : implicit remarks / omission / specific to generalized claims/ and begging the question... and you're not alone.. I deal w/ a lot of smug Asian closet racists like you in the industry who upon first introduction think I am the janitor but then come to learn I have a masters degree in Electrical and Computer Engineering from the top university at the time for that major and work for one of the top companies in the valley ... *whispers : must have been because of AA ..
Having lots of Asian friends they have told me a lot about what you display as : Passive Asian racism.
All fluff and no substance. You had access to my posting history to provide concrete evidence showing a single sentence supporting your accusation that I'm a racist.
As usual, you're full of hot air so carry on with your blind accusations.
Define enough .... Just because you see a very small portion of African Americans rising up doesn't mean that it's 'enough'. The vast majority still aren't, has something to do with the adversity the parents of kids today faced 1 generation ago, and that's reflected in the #'s if you cared to really do research.. But you and others don't.. You see some well to do black people and that's 'enough' for you to say a program meant to help the vast majority that are still screwed up. It's 'enough' because you honestly don't care to do your research to know it isn't and discover something that goes against your more probable view which is that it shouldn't have existed in the first place.
I say this because, If you felt it should have existed in the first place and were informed on the matter, you would KNOW it's not 'enough'.
Oh hey, there is a well to do black person .. O.K everyone else (the majority) who are still screwed up .. one of you made it out it .. Games over.. I'm sorry but you all must be doing something wrong since you aren't doing well like this guy.
Meant being the key word. I think blacks are going to be in for a very long and very painful time if they think the government is the key to improving their affluence and other metrics of success.
I also think it's a bit disingenuous to say the vast majority of blacks have not succeeded - you speak very emotionally on this subject, so I'll presume that you are black. I just don't agree that failed government programs that haven't worked for decades will miraculously start working.
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