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Suppose this is when the dust has settled from SHTF and the survivalists are now in their daily routine, self sufficient, but still in need of certain goods or services. In an average middleclass town like Charlottesville Virginia if I knew some people who had their **** together and valued silver for what it's worth, and they weren't farmers nor urban.. what do you think I could get from them with an ounce of silver?
Suppose this is when the dust has settled from SHTF and the survivalists are now in their daily routine, self sufficient, but still in need of certain goods or services. In an average middleclass town like Charlottesville Virginia if I knew some people who had their **** together and valued silver for what it's worth, and they weren't farmers nor urban.. what do you think I could get from them with an ounce of silver?
The other question is, what would they have you want/need?
If / When the SHTF, a man with a year's supply of money will not outlive a man with a year's supply of food.
True.
Let those who want to believe otherwise go ahead and hoard and plan. <shrug>
Gungnir, your last post was excellent. I tried to rep you, but of course "You must spread some reputation around..." Those who don't want to believe it, won't, and there's no way to convince them otherwise. Which is OK... and which brings me back to my first post, Americans for the most part don't understand mediums of exchange or market value. It isn't what you can afford, it's what it is worth to you to get it. The more you need something, the more desperate you are, and the less available it is, the higher the price. Those who have no need for gold and who would prefer to keep their goods, might not care if you starve to death looking for something that they want in trade. Mac's right - be it maple syrup or chickens or vegies, IF the seller has a surplus, IF the seller has a need, IF the seller can be coerced into trade - the price of what the seller has will not be determined by Wall Street, but by the buyer's need as well as the seller's willingness to sell.
If folks want to believe that everyone with goods and services will be gathered at flea markets desperately looking for buyers, that's their choice and right to believe that. If they find it hard to believe that people, even professionals like doctors or lawyers, will work for a sack of potatoes or beans or a quarter of beef, and will demand gold instead, that's fine, too. People who have never been truly poor or truly hungry or truly desperate find such situations inconcievable, and will tell themselves anything to convince themselves that it could never/will never happen to them. We shall see how well that works.
At Ron de Voo there are Blanket Traders. That means anyone with something to trade/sell has a blanket out in front of his/her lodge, with any articals placed on the blanket for sale/trade.
There is a Traders Row at most events as well. These places are like stores, and they usually want dead presidents as trade items, but on occasions will take in something of a higher quality.
But the topic is Blanket Traders in this post.
They are most like what we will be like. This type of trading can be a lot of fun, of course it isn't in shtf. The items wanted will depend, and the items you have to trade will varry too, and it might be you want something the other guys has, but he wants nothing you have. So then the deal is to find out what he wants, and go try to trade for that, to get what it is he has you do want.
Other times you may have someone who wants a better items you have, and wants to do a dead presidents trade and a item, to get what you have.
An expample is I made knives and a guy wanted one knife I made, but wanted it at to little of a cost, offering his own knife to up the ante. I was mostly after dead presidents, and I didn't want the guys commercial Natchez bowie a bit.
Ah, but his buddy wanted that Natchez and I could 'read it'.
I went into braggin' rites mode, and took up a pot hook from the place where my blanket was.
(I set up blankets at other peoples lodges sometimes)
I asked for a pot hook of un-known quailty, telling the owner I would either buy it, or pretty much ruin it, and was handed one.
At that point I sliced o ff slivers of steel from the hook and chopped you the area I just shaved making sure to hit the sharp edge up and down the length of the blade well, then shaved the burrs off clean.
Then I passed the knife and the hook to the buyer, who was mumbling he didn't want a ruined knife and had been making a serious offer.
I told him I would take somewhat more money than his offer, and his Natchez
The Buyer inspected the knife, couldn't find a thing wrong, and handed me his Natchez which I threw on the blanket carelessly, and took his dead presidents. I gave the pot hook back to it's original owner, who was grin ning and said he was gonna place that hook in a picture frame. LOL
No sooner was that done, the guys buddy was wanting that Natchez and I was glad to see it go, for some more dead presidents. I made more cash that way than had I just taken the cash I had wanted in the first place.
For this to work out well you have to know the value of what you have, and be able to prove it.
A buyer should also know the value of what he wants.
The best thing is to not get desperate, and have a wide selcetion of trade items and PM's to enable most any trades. Be ready to walk away.
Trading up tools you need for a meal isn't very wise at all. Thinking you can still buy what you need as expendables any time you want isn't very wise either.
That's like having a moving sale, and telling would be buyers you have less than 24 hours to get it done. Be that stupid about trading and you will get raked sartin.
OT: a main problem with us in this thread is we are all would be traders on the selling end for the most part. We are all doers, and not much on the consumer end. We are not thinking in terms of BUY, but in terms of SELL
I have no idea what I might make to sell and trade for 1 oz of silver. It would depend on what I could get for the silver too, but I for one would beat that silver into something i could wear. The silver would be a surplus, where I wasn't into expendables.
At events I use trade silver to buy rounds of grog, bowls of mead, and pass it around wildly. This usually ends up with me and a whole bunch of 'Camp Followers' having a great time. LOL The Bar Keep is pretty happy and cuts the grog with somewhat less water.
You stood behind your work. I think I would want that knife. If people begin hunting they would want a good knife and not junk from walmart. A machete goes for 30 but those who don't have it post-shtf will want something like that.
Gold and silver have been money for over 5,000 years. There have been brief interruptions where something else was used, but they always came back to precious metals. Always.
Some folks think that a paper bill is a dollar. Look closely...it says "Federal Reserve Note". A note is a debt, and that is what paper money is all about. It's also the reason why our world-wide system of paper money is imploding. It's happening much more quickly than I imagined it would. Paper money is already dead; we just haven't finished the funeral yet.
On the other hand, there is such a thing as a dollar, still. A Constutional dollar is defined as 371.25 grains of fine silver. It's comforting (to me, anyway) to know that the "dollar" will survive this currency crisis, because it is measured in silver, not paper.
If anyone has the ambition to look up the prices of goods back in 1913, when the Federal Reserve Act was passed, then translate that 371.25 grains of fine silver into troy ounces, they'd have a good starting point to figure what one troy ounce of fine silver would buy today. Don't ask me to do the research or the conversion -- I work too hard as it is!
Just remember that the conversion you make, may need to be re-done tomorrow, as silver and gold continue to go up in price. Some people say that gold is "in a bubble". Don't believe it. It will end up at multiples of where it is today.
As for that one troy ounce of fine silver, a dozen eggs in 1914 cost 14 cents. That would be one 90% silver dime, and 4 copper pennies. A dozen eggs today will cost you $2-3 or more, depending. You go figure!
What you are describing is the basic suppy/demand free market system. Same as it has always been.
When I was in Eastern Europe there were blanket traders too, and some of them like copper or silversmiths were making pots, pans, or jewelry as they waited for customers, or would customize your piece while you waited and watched. They accepted payment in trade, folding money or hard value currency including gold and silver. They preferred gold and silver or trade as it wasn't put on their tax forms
Gun shows are basically the same thing. You bring in your trade items, you see something you want, then the dickering begins.
There is no new thing under the sun.
I have a small forge and while it doesn't get hot enough to weld, I can easily forge knives, axes, bolo knives, sythes, hammerheads, whatever, or I could sharpen saws, knives, axes because I have files and tools. I don't have good anthricite coal available to me, but wood/charcoal work in a pinch and there are coal mines for softer coal here in Montana, but the point is, I can make a product, but need to obtain the basic materials, ie coal and steel, to produce my products. This means I have to buy or trade for those materials.
Now, I could do custom work for someone who brings me coal and steel, but then what do I charge for my labor?
It is what I think it is worth. That could be a chicken, or silver. As the supplier it is up to me what I accept as payment for goods or services. What I pay for my materials to ply that craft is up to those who have the raw materials I need.
If you need a knife, you need a knife. Is it the desperation scenario being described? No, but it is still something I can produce that has value.
If you are describing the aftermath of a nuclear holocost, or half the country falling into the ocean from an earthquake, or military attack where there are huge numbers of displaced people running for their lives, then yes, I cannot move all my supplies and equipment easily, but I have horses and oxen so I could transport a lot, and I can take my knowledge and skills, and can apply those as a service that has value, just as a doctor or paramedic would have.
Someone who can repair tools and machinery is always needed as stuff breaks, wears out, or is needed for harvest or whatever.
Every scenario we discuss here is always a sand table excercise, I sure can't read the future, and never met anyone who could. All we have are our own suppositions about what MIGHT happen in the event of XYZ event. We each prepare based on our perception of what MIGHT happen. This is why I don't discount any situation and prepare for all situations I can envision.
That is why PM are part of my complete package. Some folks may not want Silver or Gold in payment, but a lot will, so it is just covering another base for me.
I concentrate on raising food, gathering wild edibles, honing skills for hunting/fishing/steelwork/woodwork and primitive skills. I will take care of my family any way I can, so that includes having the means to pay for a service from someone who only wants a silver round for service as they have more chickens than they can ever eat.
The other question is, what would they have you want/need?
spices, toothpaste, holistic medicine, milk... stuff that people overlook when preparing for SHTF.. im staying focused on the basics, leaving the other stuff to the women who may not do a good job.
True.
Let those who want to believe otherwise go ahead and hoard and plan. <shrug>
Gungnir, your last post was excellent. I tried to rep you, but of course "You must spread some reputation around..." Those who don't want to believe it, won't, and there's no way to convince them otherwise. Which is OK... and which brings me back to my first post, Americans for the most part don't understand mediums of exchange or market value. It isn't what you can afford, it's what it is worth to you to get it. The more you need something, the more desperate you are, and the less available it is, the higher the price. Those who have no need for gold and who would prefer to keep their goods, might not care if you starve to death looking for something that they want in trade. Mac's right - be it maple syrup or chickens or vegies, IF the seller has a surplus, IF the seller has a need, IF the seller can be coerced into trade - the price of what the seller has will not be determined by Wall Street, but by the buyer's need as well as the seller's willingness to sell.
If folks want to believe that everyone with goods and services will be gathered at flea markets desperately looking for buyers, that's their choice and right to believe that. If they find it hard to believe that people, even professionals like doctors or lawyers, will work for a sack of potatoes or beans or a quarter of beef, and will demand gold instead, that's fine, too. People who have never been truly poor or truly hungry or truly desperate find such situations inconcievable, and will tell themselves anything to convince themselves that it could never/will never happen to them. We shall see how well that works.
I'll stop needlessly explaining to those who CHOOSE to ignore BOTH what we have to say (About have both) and over 5,000 years of history.
Mac gets it. (Figures since FEW Americans trade much)
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Ah, but his buddy wanted that Natchez and I could 'read it'.
