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The vast majority of people would improve their lives immensely if they were debt free. They would not have to leave the city and would be much happier. Being debt free gives you the choice to tell your boss to "shove it", move to another place whenever you feel like it and generally do what you damn well please.
Nonsense.
It's not without reason that records of credit predate coinage by three thousand years and certainly existed in far earlier times. Early barter societies were very dependent upon credit to prevent the classic dilemma of the man with a bushel of oats trying to trade it for a bucket of fish.
How many people would own homes if not for credit? Or new or even just decent vehicles. How many small farmers could have existed if not for loans for seed and fertilizer? How many new businesses would be successful without credit?
Business loans, particularly agricultural loans, have existed for millenia. The mortgage on the old homestead existed a hundred years ago and twenty-five hundred years ago. How could the entrepeneur set forth on a trading voyage without bottomry? How could a farmer buy that extra land or the equipment to work it without credit? Ever heard of "land rich but cash poor"?
Or what about building a fiber optics network? Or having a new suit or dress for a job interview?
No credit, no civilization; not even the barest beginnings.
If you're planning a life without modern conveniences you won't be self-sufficient; you'll just be impoverished. Self-sufficiency means being able to live a life unconnected to either the grid or to governmental aid programs. It means earning a living without the need for an employer. It means ether being able to perform day to day tasks or having the money to pay someone else to perform these tasks.
My definition of self-sufficient is a bit more detailed. To me, self-sufficient means that I am not dependent upon anyone or anything for my family's basic needs. I don't need the supermarket to be able to feed my family, I don't need a builder or contractor to construct or maintain my shelter, and I don't need Wal-Mart to have clothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming
Do you want to be self-sufficient? Fine, then start your own business. Start investing based upon both economic and political realities.
I've had my own business for 10 years. That's hardly self-sufficient. If my clients stopped purchasing my services, en masse, my family would starve. "Self-sufficient" means that I could take care of my family even if my business completely died. As for investing, what's the reality now may not be the reality later. I'm sure all of the people who invested in GM back in the day when it did really well, and held their stock until close to the very end when it became worthless "Motors Liquidation" stock due to the handiwork of our illustrious federal government, would agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming
You want be off the grid? Why?
Because it represents independence. However, I might not mind staying on the grid if I had a thorough array of backup systems so that it wouldn't matter in the least if the grid went down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarlet_ohara
We still live in the "modern system" but are covered if everything goes south today. We are deliriously happy knowing this. Even if for some crazy unpredicatable reason our backup plans fail, I am happy knowing we had these extremely enjoyable times.
Does this mean you are capable of producing your own food, shelter, and clothing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ognend
The vast majority of people would improve their lives immensely if they were debt free. They would not have to leave the city and would be much happier. Being debt free gives you the choice to tell your boss to "shove it", move to another place whenever you feel like it and generally do what you damn well please.
You could even afford to have a paid for little place in the country to escape the city whenever you feel like the noise and lights are too much.
What I tell people who start going down the path you are going is this: make sure the pressure of the rat race (usually inspired by mortgages, car payments and credit card debt) is not pushing you to a knee jerk reaction of "to hell with it, I want to live on $20/day and dig dirt all day - I bet that will be more fun"...
We have absolutely zero debt. No mortgage, no car payment, no credit card debt (except for incidental expenses that could be paid off at a moment's notice with the money we have in the bank). Of course, we don't have much money in the bank anyway, so we have to keep dealing with whatever negatives our business generates, until we have enough to buy our own place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming
After you are sure it is not a knee jerk reaction you can start looking at ways to improve your current situation slowly. Your wife (or anyone's spouse) being apprehensive about such a move is a good thing - it is easy to get carried away in this stuff. You may end up selling everything, going to the country and realizing that your neighbors are inbreds, you hate manual labor and you were better off with Starbucks close by...
I hate labor that doesn't pay off because someone else screws me out of what should be my payoff. I don't mind manual labor... I've done it before and I like it.
And really, what's so great about fast food places? I don't drink coffee anyway... and I should note, I have no problem maintaining a level of energy that's reasonable for an adult. I average being awake 16-18 hours a day, can go as hardcore as I must for as long as I must whenever I must, and I sleep decently well. I run rings around most people my age, despite not being the most physically fit guy I know. Who needs coffee?
My energy dips when I am sedentary. For example, I can go forever if I'm playing a gig, despite how I bounce around and work up a good sweat. It's when I am sitting down for hours at a time teaching music lessons that I get tired.
Well, as you've noticed, you haven't gotten a whole lot of encouragement, yet. Why does that not surprise me?
For the record, I pretty much share your aspirations, on most points. But you won't find a whole lot of allies on this forum. There are many "styles" of sufficiency. I recently had quite an interesting and helpful exchange with one of the members here via DM (other than the one we've had) who generally doesn't say so much about this particular topic on this forum (this "style" of sufficiency you are talking about, or at least very similar). After talking with her a bit, I've concluded that, although I am really interested in the topic, it doesn't gel all that well with most of the participants here on this forum. Some, yes... but not many.
You've probably noticed the "why would you want to do that when you can xxxxx" line of questioning. Inevitable. The irony is that the more general populace would ask all of us here why we would want to do any of this. The only answer I can give to such a question is the same as if someone asked me why I like the color orange or purple. The answer is, I don't know why. It just appeals to me. Now for me, that's a good enough answer. For others, it is not... thus the line of questioning and general skepticism and/or discouragement.
Truthfully, though, when someone asks why anyone would want to (we're talking me now) live in a 16x12 timber frame house rather than a 2500 sf solar-powered McMansion, burn Aladdin lamps or candles rather than electricity, and hand mill flour to bake bread rather than stocking up on MREs, what can I say??? Yeah, I might be able to justify it with a sufficiency argument, and I try at times; and that's fine, but there are certainly more modern sufficiency "styles" that are as valid and require less work. But, you see for those of us who are... well... like us, that's not really the bigger reason. It is A reason, but it's not enough. The larger reason is more accurately described as, "Because that's want I want to do. It's something inside." You can't justify what boils down to subsistence to most folks within our modern society. It doesn't compute. So it's just as effective (and truthful) to say it's the same reason I've been a musician, writer, and artist most all my life (in addition to whatever else I may do). There is no reason. It's just what I want to do.
Well, as you've noticed, you haven't gotten a whole lot of encouragement, yet. Why does that not surprise me?
For the record, I pretty much share your aspirations, on most points. But you won't find a whole lot of allies on this forum. There are many "styles" of sufficiency. I recently had quite an interesting and helpful exchange with one of the members here via DM (other than the one we've had) who generally doesn't say so much about this particular topic on this forum (this "style" of sufficiency you are talking about, or at least very similar). After talking with her a bit, I've concluded that, although I am really interested in the topic, it doesn't gel all that well with most of the participants here on this forum. Some, yes... but not many.
You've probably noticed the "why would you want to do that when you can xxxxx" line of questioning. Inevitable. The irony is that the more general populace would ask all of us here why we would want to do any of this. The only answer I can give to such a question is the same as if someone asked me why I like the color orange or purple. The answer is, I don't know why. It just appeals to me. Now for me, that's a good enough answer. For others, it is not... thus the line of questioning and general skepticism and/or discouragement.
Truthfully, though, when someone asks why anyone would want to (we're talking me now) live in a 16x12 timber frame house rather than a 2500 sf solar-powered McMansion, burn Aladdin lamps or candles rather than electricity, and hand mill flour to bake bread rather than stocking up on MREs, what can I say??? Yeah, I might be able to justify it with a sufficiency argument, and I try at times; and that's fine, but there are certainly more modern sufficiency "styles" that are as valid and require less work. But, you see for those of us who are... well... like us, that's not really the bigger reason. It is A reason, but it's not enough. The larger reason is more accurately described as, "Because that's want I want to do. It's something inside." You can't justify what boils down to subsistence to most folks within our modern society. It doesn't compute. So it's just as effective (and truthful) to say it's the same reason I've been a musician, writer, and artist most all my life (in addition to whatever else I may do). There is no reason. It's just what I want to do.
Just for the record, I don't discourage anyone from doing this, and in fact encourage it as much as possible, but I want folks to really look at it realistically and work from an informed position.
It isn't an easy thing to dump everything you know and start from scratch especially if you don't possess the skillset necessary to do what you need to do to make your living from what you produce or catch or raise or find out in the woods.
Too many folks see too many disney movies or discovery channel shows and think, "I could do that, it looks easy" and then find that it takes a while for the garden to start producing, or that it takes nearly 2 years for that calf to be of the proper size to fill your freezer, and that wild edibles only occur during their specific season, so you better be able to buy food until you can use your own stuff to eat, and that if you don't know how to forge or grind a knife when your store-bought knife breaks, you are just SOL unless you go buy another one. Plus you need to have the skills to rebuild whatever breaks, (everything does), and the ability to adapt and think of doing things in new ways if you can't afford the repairs if you can't fabricate the part yourself.
I have seen folks trying to just cut wood that don't know how to sharpen their chainsaw and have to take it into the shop to have even this most basic thing done for them.
People today are used to having everything they need anytime they need it in any quantity they want by just driving to the store and trading plastic for it.
It doesn't work that way when you are building your life from what you raise yourself. Life on a farm or small holding or ranch moves in it's own time and at it's own pace. Usually slow, but sometimes frenetically fast and you have to be ready to go when the time comes to harvest and save everything you have worked so hard to produce so you don't loose it to rot.
Personally, I applaud anyone with the gumption and grit to take on a challenge like this, I think it is commendable and an excellent choice. I like the people whom I have met that have taken on this challenge, but I see a lot of them with their spirits broken returning to their old lives when things don't work out.
My state is covered in rotting homesteader cabins where people came with a dream, and lost everything.
I want to give the most realistic and pertinent information I can that will enable anyone thinking of doing this the best shot at it that I can to allow them to succeed.
Don't mistake caution and sober advise for discouragement.
One of the basic tennets of survival training is to look at every option and danger before making a move because the price of failure is high.
Attitude and willingness to work hard and learn are the basic requirements for becoming self sufficent or even able to improve your situation in whatever circumstance you encounter, but those are just where you start from. It takes a lot of dedication and adaptability to actually succeed and provide for yourself in this manner.
I was born into it and spent the first 20 years of my life living like this, and still do it to this day in a more reduced manner, but will return to it full time when I retire. I love it, but it isn't for every body, so asking questions and listening to what other say is the best way to make the best decision for yourself and your family.
RomaniGypsy is doing the right thing by asking, and his wife is doing the right thing by being cautious. Working together, they should do fine. I have always done my best work when someone questions what I plan, and make me think of things I may have missed, and I end up with a better solution in the end.
Last edited by MTSilvertip; 11-10-2012 at 05:11 PM..
I've had my own business for 10 years. That's hardly self-sufficient. If my clients stopped purchasing my services, en masse, my family would starve.
I developed multiple streams of income. You could use your music knowledge to create additional streams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy
Does this mean you are capable of producing your own food, shelter, and clothing?
Food - yes we produce most of our food, can, freeze, etc., and also some hunting and fishing. We also keep a large pantry of rotated supermarket goods as backup because when you raise your own food, Mother Nature doesn't always cooperate.
Clothing - I don't make our clothing. I know how if I have to but I would still have to acquire the fabric. I won't be making that but I could barter with someone who does.
Shelter - We renovated a 150 year old house. If you've ever done that, you know it's easier to build from scratch. We have constructed outbuildings, nice ones, nice enough to live in! So yes, if we had to we could build a house.
I am probably somewhat in your wife's shoes in that my husband would prefer to live that way, or at least he thinks he would prefer to live that way, and he has tried to convince me we should move and change how we live.
From my perspective, the thought of switching to a very difficult life in case modern conveniences go away (or worse), seems kind of drastic, even if it is possible that things could get bad.
I am not sure if I can explain this well. However, the more my husband tries to convince me that living differently is important, the more it makes me want to live for today, since if things get so bad that only people who live in tents (being dramatic here), will survive, then it makes me feel like I would rather take my chances.
So, I agree with the people who said to combine your goals with her wants/needs.
Also, if you are very single minded in this goal (not saying you are, but just in case), I also suggest trying to tone it down a bit and make sure you are also truly seeing your wife's side. For one, having to defend why you want to live the way you have always lived to a person that knew you and was like you once upon a time, can get tiring. Plus, if you can ease into things, it may let her see and agree (or not!), in a less intimidating way.
Also, in case anyone is going to write that I should try it and join my husband, his deal came with two elderly in-laws who would live with us and pay for the land (and they are not very nice to me and would be even less nice if we owed them money), farming as income when my husband and I both have bad backs, and giving up my job which is mostly what we live on.
I am probably somewhat in your wife's shoes in that my husband would prefer to live that way, or at least he thinks he would prefer to live that way, and he has tried to convince me we should move and change how we live.
From my perspective, the thought of switching to a very difficult life in case modern conveniences go away (or worse), seems kind of drastic, even if it is possible that things could get bad.
I am not sure if I can explain this well. However, the more my husband tries to convince me that living differently is important, the more it makes me want to live for today, since if things get so bad that only people who live in tents (being dramatic here), will survive, then it makes me feel like I would rather take my chances.
So, I agree with the people who said to combine your goals with her wants/needs.
Also, if you are very single minded in this goal (not saying you are, but just in case), I also suggest trying to tone it down a bit and make sure you are also truly seeing your wife's side. For one, having to defend why you want to live the way you have always lived to a person that knew you and was like you once upon a time, can get tiring. Plus, if you can ease into things, it may let her see and agree (or not!), in a less intimidating way.
Also, in case anyone is going to write that I should try it and join my husband, his deal came with two elderly in-laws who would live with us and pay for the land (and they are not very nice to me and would be even less nice if we owed them money), farming as income when my husband and I both have bad backs, and giving up my job which is mostly what we live on.
You'd be nuts to do it. Your goal needs to be to get your husband to make more money. I don't care if he has a bad back; people in wheelchairs run successful businesses. Your husband, as well as the other would-be farmers on this forum need to add the the term crop failure to their vocabularies. I don't recall seeing it even once. Too many men who haven't done so well think that they'll prove themselves as the stalwart agriculturist. But what they generally prove is that they can fail at one more thing.
It's not without reason that records of credit predate coinage by three thousand years and certainly existed in far earlier times. Early barter societies were very dependent upon credit to prevent the classic dilemma of the man with a bushel of oats trying to trade it for a bucket of fish.
How many people would own homes if not for credit? Or new or even just decent vehicles. How many small farmers could have existed if not for loans for seed and fertilizer? How many new businesses would be successful without credit?
Business loans, particularly agricultural loans, have existed for millenia. The mortgage on the old homestead existed a hundred years ago and twenty-five hundred years ago. How could the entrepeneur set forth on a trading voyage without bottomry? How could a farmer buy that extra land or the equipment to work it without credit? Ever heard of "land rich but cash poor"?
Or what about building a fiber optics network? Or having a new suit or dress for a job interview?
No credit, no civilization; not even the barest beginnings.
We are talking about someone who wants to be self-sufficient, not someone who wants to be dependent on debt. The best, first and most important step to self-sufficiency (and relief of a lot of outside pressure) is to be debt free. You can talk ancient times, pre-cointage, agro-credit but I speak from personal experience . You can have a $400/month car payment or you can pay off your car when you buy it and drive without a worry. You can take that pesky, nasty boss who is on your case every day because you have a mortgage or you can pay off your house and have no serious monthly bills... Who will be happier?
Just for the record, I don't discourage anyone from doing this, and in fact encourage it as much as possible, but I want folks to really look at it realistically and work from an informed position.
It isn't an easy thing to dump everything you know and start from scratch especially if you don't possess the skillset necessary to do what you need to do to make your living from what you produce or catch or raise or find out in the woods.
Too many folks see too many disney movies or discovery channel shows and think, "I could do that, it looks easy" and then find that it takes a while for the garden to start producing, or that it takes nearly 2 years for that calf to be of the proper size to fill your freezer, and that wild edibles only occur during their specific season, so you better be able to buy food until you can use your own stuff to eat, and that if you don't know how to forge or grind a knife when your store-bought knife breaks, you are just SOL unless you go buy another one. Plus you need to have the skills to rebuild whatever breaks, (everything does), and the ability to adapt and think of doing things in new ways if you can't afford the repairs if you can't fabricate the part yourself.
I have seen folks trying to just cut wood that don't know how to sharpen their chainsaw and have to take it into the shop to have even this most basic thing done for them.
People today are used to having everything they need anytime they need it in any quantity they want by just driving to the store and trading plastic for it.
It doesn't work that way when you are building your life from what you raise yourself. Life on a farm or small holding or ranch moves in it's own time and at it's own pace. Usually slow, but sometimes frenetically fast and you have to be ready to go when the time comes to harvest and save everything you have worked so hard to produce so you don't loose it to rot.
Personally, I applaud anyone with the gumption and grit to take on a challenge like this, I think it is commendable and an excellent choice. I like the people whom I have met that have taken on this challenge, but I see a lot of them with their spirits broken returning to their old lives when things don't work out.
My state is covered in rotting homesteader cabins where people came with a dream, and lost everything.
I want to give the most realistic and pertinent information I can that will enable anyone thinking of doing this the best shot at it that I can to allow them to succeed.
Don't mistake caution and sober advise for discouragement.
One of the basic tennets of survival training is to look at every option and danger before making a move because the price of failure is high.
Attitude and willingness to work hard and learn are the basic requirements for becoming self sufficent or even able to improve your situation in whatever circumstance you encounter, but those are just where you start from. It takes a lot of dedication and adaptability to actually succeed and provide for yourself in this manner.
I was born into it and spent the first 20 years of my life living like this, and still do it to this day in a more reduced manner, but will return to it full time when I retire. I love it, but it isn't for every body, so asking questions and listening to what other say is the best way to make the best decision for yourself and your family.
RomaniGypsy is doing the right thing by asking, and his wife is doing the right thing by being cautious. Working together, they should do fine. I have always done my best work when someone questions what I plan, and make me think of things I may have missed, and I end up with a better solution in the end.
You are one of the "good guys" here (in my opinion), as far as this topic is concerned because as you say, you do encourage the idea. You are also realistic in your responses, and you've done most all of this stuff. So... no, I wasn't inferring that you are discouraging. You are probably the person on this forum who has the most experience with this stuff as far as traditional rural lifestyle topics (along with a couple of other folks, as well). So, you win the Most Helpful award on this topic (in my book).
Well, as you've noticed, you haven't gotten a whole lot of encouragement, yet. Why does that not surprise me?
For the record, I pretty much share your aspirations, on most points. But you won't find a whole lot of allies on this forum. There are many "styles" of sufficiency. I recently had quite an interesting and helpful exchange with one of the members here via DM (other than the one we've had) who generally doesn't say so much about this particular topic on this forum (this "style" of sufficiency you are talking about, or at least very similar). After talking with her a bit, I've concluded that, although I am really interested in the topic, it doesn't gel all that well with most of the participants here on this forum. Some, yes... but not many.
You've probably noticed the "why would you want to do that when you can xxxxx" line of questioning. Inevitable. The irony is that the more general populace would ask all of us here why we would want to do any of this. The only answer I can give to such a question is the same as if someone asked me why I like the color orange or purple. The answer is, I don't know why. It just appeals to me. Now for me, that's a good enough answer. For others, it is not... thus the line of questioning and general skepticism and/or discouragement.
Truthfully, though, when someone asks why anyone would want to (we're talking me now) live in a 16x12 timber frame house rather than a 2500 sf solar-powered McMansion, burn Aladdin lamps or candles rather than electricity, and hand mill flour to bake bread rather than stocking up on MREs, what can I say??? Yeah, I might be able to justify it with a sufficiency argument, and I try at times; and that's fine, but there are certainly more modern sufficiency "styles" that are as valid and require less work. But, you see for those of us who are... well... like us, that's not really the bigger reason. It is A reason, but it's not enough. The larger reason is more accurately described as, "Because that's want I want to do. It's something inside." You can't justify what boils down to subsistence to most folks within our modern society. It doesn't compute. So it's just as effective (and truthful) to say it's the same reason I've been a musician, writer, and artist most all my life (in addition to whatever else I may do). There is no reason. It's just what I want to do.
Nobody said "don't do it". I said do it for the right reasons for yourself. A lot of people look for an escape when their economic existence becomes too difficult (too much debt, job they hate etc.). Too many people are unhappy inside and they think that moving somewhere else and changing the life drastically will make the difference. It won't.
Being self-sufficient is a nice thing to do but for the vast majority of Americans being debt free should be the first goal. After they have attained it, they should think about what next. Most will realize that life is great as it is.
OD
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. You can have a $400/month car payment or you can pay off your car when you buy it and drive without a worry. You can take that pesky, nasty boss who is on your case every day because you have a mortgage or you can pay off your house and have no serious monthly bills... Who will be happier? 
