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Old 10-25-2013, 01:20 PM
 
1,400 posts, read 1,846,286 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip View Post
Don't you ever get tired of being wrong???
You did not really answer the question - what equality? You are the one claiming it... You provided more evidence to support the contrary
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Old 10-25-2013, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Connecticut is my adopted home.
2,398 posts, read 3,839,588 times
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FWIW bolillo I agree that we've done a lot of of this to ourselves but not having much sympathy for dole "lifers" is not mutually exclusive against investing in "Merica" as you put it, whether it's buying domestic products (or better yet, local) and being part of the solution in good works for helping hand organizations, one of my favorites being Habitat for Humanity. I buy USA whenever possible and I have a story I tell regularly about trying in vain for many weeks to find a Made in the USA gift for a baby shower. If we can't find a USA or Canadian product, we buy used or do without. I do not shop Chinamarts! It's just the principle of the thing to me. Price be hanged.

That I prep for natural or man made disaster as a matter of prudence and grow a lot of our food does not make me the enemy, far from it. I won't be in line with truly needy folks taking resources. If you folks aren't interested in self sufficiency, I wonder at you being here. I'm not into using typical beauty products and it would be purely obnoxious of me to go over there to that forum and spout my beliefs that we are all naturally beautiful without so much fixation on artificiality. Similarly I think it's obnoxious to stalk this forum if you substantially disagree with the premise of it. Maybe it's your "right" but why do it? So I'm done here. I've had my say....
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Old 10-25-2013, 01:50 PM
 
34,619 posts, read 21,663,169 times
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Some people believe that if you work your tail off for 100 hours a week for many years to build a business, the person working 20 hours a week is entitled to your same lifestyle.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:13 PM
 
1,400 posts, read 1,846,286 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
Some people believe that if you work your tail off for 100 hours a week for many years to build a business, the person working 20 hours a week is entitled to your same lifestyle.
But these are extremes

Of course nobody here is advocating that. However, the system could be more compassionate.
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:31 PM
 
34,619 posts, read 21,663,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordyLordy View Post
But these are extremes

Of course nobody here is advocating that. However, the system could be more compassionate.
Negative. People should be more compassionate (and they are). The idea that government should take the fruits of your labor to hand over to another person is ridiculous. I have no issue with the government taking from people to provide infrastructure and protection, but not to hand out to others.

If we are in a financial crisis where jobs aren't out there for people, let the government hire the unemployed to WORK on infrastructure and such. I'll support jobs programs when necessary but not freebies.
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:34 PM
 
1,400 posts, read 1,846,286 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
Negative. People should be more compassionate (and they are). The idea that government should take the fruits of your labor to hand over to another person is ridiculous. I have no issue with the government taking from people to provide infrastructure and protection, but not to hand out to others.

If we are in a financial crisis where jobs aren't out there for people, let the government hire the unemployed to WORK on infrastructure and such. I'll support jobs programs when necessary but not freebies.
Sigh. OK. I am out
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Oceania
8,610 posts, read 7,907,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor'Eastah View Post
Actually, there are many people now cashing out their IRAs and 401(k)s because they expect the gubmint to nationalize retirement funds (invest them into US bonds "for our own "protection" from a stock market crash) as they have done in Argentina and Poland (and speaking about, elsewhere). I cashed out my own a few years back. Between that and "bail-ins", looks like a lot of gubmints want a lot of our money. YMMV.

Do you mean to say something like this may actually come to pass???

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...0120117:smack:
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Oceania
8,610 posts, read 7,907,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bolillo_loco View Post
I am baffled with doomsday preppers. If what they're getting ready for happens, all their preps are pointless! Notwithstanding riots, nefarious gans, and all the REX-84 scenarios, dangerous infrastructure in the form of dams, dikes, sewer, nuke plants, and people living in flood, hurricane, blizzard, arid etc areas will find themselves displaced from their shelter and or living in an unsustainable area. 1 year's worth of food and a closet full of dark guns isn't going to matter because even disregarding civil unrest, hording in urban, suburban, and most rural areas isn't a sustainable model.

Preppers are probably the most self sufficient of all. They learn to grow their own food and everything. The hardcore folks have bug-out cabins on property out in the wilderness to escape from. Does it really upset you to know there are people doing this in and around your neighborhood? People from work? We should all have a closet full of 'dark' guns. People use to build bomb shelters in their back yards and stock them with necessities...was that weird? That was prepping 50s style. The real deal was to have a 57 Corvette tucked away with you.
I wouldn't necessarily want to live after a full collapse of society, especially if nuclear poisoning and living under the whims of a despot were realities but preppers can do their thing just like I do mine. It doesn't baffle me.
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Old 10-26-2013, 07:23 AM
 
645 posts, read 1,277,320 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip View Post
Inspirational Post AK-Cathy, Good for you

Exactly the kind of story that should be widespread about how hard work and determination can turn a life around.

That just because you were born into difficult circumstances, doesn't mean that has to define you for the rest of your life. You have the power to apply yourself, work toward your goals and achieve your dreams instead of sitting around whining that "the man" or "corporations" are holding you back while you wait for your next government check while living in your government housing, eating food bought by a government debit card, and having your multiple kids from different fathers on the taxpayer dime.

It used to be that stories like this were lauded and used as examples of how to provide for yourself and get ahead.
Now it is the gorged food stamp roles and the expanded unemployment benefits that are the way to live in our new "utopia".

Equality through equal misery, as long as the government gives it to you and you don't have to lift a finger to get it, right?

The board wouldn't let me rep you again, but this post is definately worth the credit

Thank you for posting it.
Yes, her story is laudable, however, it's not the norm. THere are not enough minimum wage jobs fore everybody out there. The America I was born into is not the 'Merika I live in today. Go to any town in 'Merika and look at all the urban blight created by 'Merikans who bought foreign products. Stories like hers perpetuate the myth that you can make it if you try hard enough. Going to college is largely a waste of time. Furthermore, in the America I was born into, one didn't even have to graduate high school. One could quit school, get a factory job, and support a non working wife and eight kids. Inflation, speculation, and a myriad of problems have made today's cost of living exponentially higher. Just look at housing costs and property tax. Nobody on minimum wage is going to support themselves on it much less buy a house and pay the taxes for it. I honestly think that some of you should wake up to what's going on in this country. I find it sadly ironic that "self sufficient and anti government" people can see the problem, but don't recognize why we have one.

Furthermore, women largely have it made, so I don't find it surprising that some girl worked her way out of the bottom. GOvernment regulations largely hand out jobs to everybody who's not a white man. Try being a white man and going for a job or a hand out. Demographic mandates are a fact of life in 'Merika. In my area, we have to import blacks and Hispanics from 25+ miles away because there are government regulations to be filled. Since everybody where I live is white, we have to import huge segments of the workforce, so locals aren't hired. Furthermore, when I used to pick my mom up from work, it was largely a workforce made up of women and minorities. It's also telling of just how bad things have become that people are willing to travel 50 - 60 miles daily just for 9 bucks an hour. 9 dollar an hour jobs are as common today as they were in the late 70s when it actually paid enough to live on. Moreover, my friend works at the Post Office in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. There are people traveling 100 plus miles daily because there aren't enough jobs around. Furthermore, people from Virginia and West Virginia travel to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania just to work at the Post Office. That's a sobering fact, which shows just how badly work's declined in this kountry. Moreover, the Post Office only became a "good" job after all the factories left. When I was a teenager in the 70s, I remember factory workers making fun of postal workers because of how little they got paid, their benefits weren't any better, or their retirement, and factory workers were a proud lot who wouldn't accept any hand outs, and to them, and me, working for the government is no different than sitting at home on the dole. My friend at the post office is always boasting how he and many of his crew sleep 2 - 6 hours per shift.


That's what's left in our nation. Anybody who keeps proudly stating how they got a job so everybody can do it sounds rather narcissistic to me. Read this line over and over again and again until it sinks into your head, There are not enough jobs for everybody in society. Almost everybody in society has to work to live. This isn't the 1950s where roughly 30% of the population is supporting the remaining percentage. This is 2013 where homes take 30 - 50 years to pay for. Ten year mortgages ended in the 70s. Buying a new car often carries a 5 - 10 year note and the car's largely foreign made. This isn't 1950 where the car was 100% American made and it only took you 1 - 2 years to pay for it. By the way Cathy, I find it rather hard to believe that you buy durable goods, clothing, and the like that's made locally... I wasn't born yesterday, I live here in 'Merika you know... The days of my family buying locally made things ended in the 70s. I don't know how much more sickened I could be by the attitudes of people in this Kountry. Wake up to Nueva 'Merika baby. The signs are all 'round you, you're just choosing to not see it or are blinded by your own narcissistic pride.

Quote:
Originally Posted by armory View Post
Preppers are probably the most self sufficient of all. They learn to grow their own food and everything. The hardcore folks have bug-out cabins on property out in the wilderness to escape from. Does it really upset you to know there are people doing this in and around your neighborhood? People from work? We should all have a closet full of 'dark' guns. People use to build bomb shelters in their back yards and stock them with necessities...was that weird? That was prepping 50s style. The real deal was to have a 57 Corvette tucked away with you.
I wouldn't necessarily want to live after a full collapse of society, especially if nuclear poisoning and living under the whims of a despot were realities but preppers can do their thing just like I do mine. It doesn't baffle me.
Moving into a remote area to be self sufficient is one thing. Preparing for the collapse of society is another. It's largely pointless. Moreover, very few preppers are living out in the middle of nowhere. Most of them are in suburban cul de sacs and they will be raped, pillaged, and plundered just like those who aren't prepping. Even those in remote areas will eventually be ferreted out. It's a fact! Take a long hard look at history. Just look at how many times England was invaded. Most people in our society are myopic sods. They have absolutely no clue how to wage war, they've no training, and they also lack situational awareness. Furthermore, since they've no training and they're quite short sighted, they think that their closet full of dark guns will magically protect them because they're unable to imagine how skilled some people are at stalking humans.

Cheers,
bolillo

Last edited by bolillo_loco; 10-26-2013 at 07:54 AM.. Reason: No Rhodes scholar here
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Old 10-26-2013, 08:03 AM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
6,758 posts, read 8,599,928 times
Reputation: 14972
Quote:
Originally Posted by bolillo_loco View Post
Yes, her story is laudable, however, it's not the norm. THere are not enough minimum wage jobs fore everybody out there. The America I was born into is not the 'Merika I live in today. Go to any town in 'Merika and look at all the urban blight created by 'Merikans who bought foreign products. Stories like hers perpetuate the myth that you can make it if you try hard enough. Going to college is largely a waste of time. Furthermore, in the America I was born into, one didn't even have to graduate high school. One could quit school, get a factory job, and support a non working wife and eight kids. Inflation, speculation, and a myriad of problems have made today's cost of living exponentially higher. Just look at housing costs and property tax. Nobody on minimum wage is going to support themselves on it much less buy a house and pay the taxes for it. I honestly think that some of you should wake up to what's going on in this country. I find it sadly ironic that "self sufficient and anti government" people can see the problem, but don't recognize why we have one.

Furthermore, women largely have it made, so I don't find it surprising that some girl worked her way out of the bottom. GOvernment regulations largely hand out jobs to everybody who's not a white man. Try being a white man and going for a job or a hand out.

Cheers,
bolillo
No, the factory line jobs are gone forever. A combination of bad tax laws, unions, overzealous environmental laws and other inflated costs combined with the fact that transportation has improved to the point we can ship anything from anywhere means that companies will take those manufacturing jobs where 1) The government welcomes business, 2) the labor costs are lower, 3) where they won't be hounded by frivolous lawsuits, 4) where they can reasonably manufacture their products in an environment where they can meet standards and expect those standards to remain constant for more than a couple of months at a time.

I am neither female nor minority, I wasn't in the top of my high school class, I wasn't a sport jock, so I didn't have the option of full ride scholarships. When I graduated High School, I put in for a job with the railroad, as my father and grandfather had before me.
But the maintenance shops were moving out to a different hub, those jobs were gone unless I wanted to move to Iowa.

So I ended up wrangling exotic animals for $5.00 and hour. I saved up and went to trade school and got my certificate in welding, but that was the same time the mines, logging and sawmills in the state were shutting down due to environmental laws.
So I learned to be a chef. Worked my way up to executive chef, then manager.
That restaurant closed due to the people in the area moving out because there were no jobs.
I went back to school and got my degree in Electronics. While at school I worked 2 jobs as well as carrying a full credit load.
Graduated in the top of my class, all the jobs I could find locally paid $8.00 an hour, but one of my part time jobs wanted to hire me full time with benefits. As I had a wife to support, I took the job.
The US Navy came and wanted my electronic skills, so I did a hitch. When I came back I got my old job back and after time, have worked my way up to Business Operations Supervisor.

While doing all this, I maintained the family ranch, (very small family place by Montana standards) and worked there on weekends, holidays and vacations.
I designed and did all the prospectuses, met with investors, sold the concept and created a business from scratch. My partner runs it while I still work at my original job, help with the company and do custom blacksmithing on the side.

I am not rich by any stretch of the imagination, but I have what I want and need. Just because one avenue was closed didn't mean I gave up or just sat around blaming someone else. If you hustle, are self motivated, willing to put in the hours and sacrifice, anyone can become a success if they want to.

The old "minimum effort for maximum pay" union jobs are gone. Fact of life.
I once tried to join a union, I had 17 years working with a master electrician, (my grandfather) and a degree in Electronics, but the union only questioned my political views and put a female with no practical experience ahead of me for hiring.
I have never had any use for unions since.

It can be easy to find fault with everything around you, that something is holding you down because times change.
I don't like the current economy. If this was back in the 1980's when we had a decent president, I could probably own a yacht and live high on the hog.
But this is 2013, so I make a living in spite of the government, but not too much because I don't want to have to give it all to that same government, so I use the tax laws, invest in long term and hard investments that will provide for me for the rest of my life.
While if you look at my assets on paper I am worth quite a bit, I don't have a lot of liquid assets. I make enough to keep my family fed and sheltered, but my tax returns would say I live right at poverty level.
My wife hasn't been able to find a full time job in over 2 years thanks to the current economy, my parent's are retired and getting older so their medical bills are climbing, but I support all three on my wage.
It can be done, not easy, but possible.

My choice. I worked long and hard for what I have, I don't want to fund any of Michele's globetrotting vacations.
If the tax laws change to promote business instead of penalize it, the money would come back into the country from overseas, and small business owners like myself could expand and hire, but as long as there are the current confiscatory taxes and regulations making it harder to do business in this country, the only way someone will get ahead will be to work long extra hours, educate themselves on how to keep their money from being confiscated, and the economy will remain stagnant.

True survivors learn to live in spite of what is going on around them, part of the adaptability part of self sufficiency.

The golden days are gone. Whether they come back or not depends on if the people will elect representatives and presidents that support economic recovery, or if we stick with the nanny state we have now.

Either way, Self sufficient people will continue to make do with the options they have instead of depending on the government to make things better.

I am not blind to the current situation, in fact, that is the main reason I work so hard at being self sufficient, but I refuse to submit to circumstance. It is easy to be angry, to become jaded, to feel defeated by factors you have no control of, but part of survival is to maintain a positive mental attitude.
So I see the situation, accept it, evaluate and look for ways to work around or outside the system to make sure my family is provided for.
I normally work several jobs, some with a paycheck, some I only get paid when I sell a product or service, but I keep working.
The trick is to work smarter AND harder.

It is up to you if you let the situation defeat you, or if you buckle down, get smart, and find a way to thrive in spite of the situation. Use the assets you have to their best advantage, maximize your efficiency for the best return for your effort.
Work the angles so that you see opportunity where others see only obstacles. You may have no control over the society or the situation where you are, but you do control how you respond and react to the circumstances. No-one is going to give you an opportunity, you have to make them for yourself.

Your choice to sink or swim.

Just the way it is in my opinion.

Last edited by MTSilvertip; 10-26-2013 at 08:45 AM..
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