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You are still saying that because prescription drugs have side effects and complications it is better to use supplements because they have fewer side effects and complications.
You are ignoring the fact that most supplements do not really do anything useful.
According to you, an eminent professional authority, without a doubt everybody who purchases and uses these substances is being hoodwinked by snake oil salesmen.
We'll just choose to ignore the millions of articles that might suggest otherwise. So be it. Two can play that game ...
I can point to millions of peer reviewed articles which assert that many prescription drugs have side effects that far outweight their alleged beneficial effects. Do I need to start posting all of the ones that have been pulled from the marketplace in just the last couple of years to illustrate the point?
Heck, let's start with Thalidomide. Nothing to see here, it was a perfectly safe efficacious prescription drug with no known side affects, right? Went through rigorous testing and clinical trials perfectly, right? If there were any problems here, they were so miniscule that the benefit of the drug was assured, right? Hit the marketplace and folks were totally protected by the USP quality of the production under the FDA approval process, right? Only there really were some undesirable effects, weren't there? which didn't come out until the drug was used by a large group of people?
or maybe you just don't recall that there was a problem with this side effect? there's a fair number of folk who have had their lives somewhat adversely impacted by the use of this drug, which was an FDA approved product. Too bad for them, huh? and the company that made the product got off scott free, right? everybody was happy, right?
Wanna' go down this road with a host of other drugs which have been removed from the marketplace because they had just a few little "side effects"? How about the ones that the FDA has removed from the market because they didn't do what they were claimed to do to begin with? Wanna' bet I can't start posting a fair number of those, too?
Let's try a few more, OK? from Bloomberg, in 2009
"Half of the 21 drugs pulled from the market in the U.S. for safety reasons since 1995 involved heart complications, a finding that is spurring Congress and doctors to call for closer government review of side effects.
The products were on the market from 11 months to 30 years, based on a review of Food and Drug Administration data obtained by Bloomberg. GlaxoSmithKline Plc’s diabetes drug Avandia, marketed for 11 years, narrowly avoided a recall last week when the FDA restricted its use as a result of a link to heart ailments only uncovered after the drug was in wide use. The agency is now reviewing heart risks for Abbott Laboratories’ diet pill Meridia, sold since 1997."
I'll point us in the direction of dexenfluramine and fenfluramine; I know two people who got heart valve problems from these two. A minor side effect, no? Just keep on telling us that the FDA approval process is air tight and folks are imagining that they are getting ill from the prescription meds they took under a doc's care and supervision, and everything's gonna be OK, right?
Just who do you think you're fooling?
Overall, my take on the marketplace is that there's been a lot more folk injured or killed with prescription drugs in the USA than ever adversely affected by supplements .... OH, I forgot. Those supplements are merely expensive placebos, so they can't be efficacious and are simply a waste of money ... according to you. Yup, indeed, the pharmaceutical industry under the auspices of the FDA is incapable of making mistakes compared to the sloppy uncontrolled environment of the supplement industry snake oil sales people.
I heard a rumor that most of the snake oil supplements are nothing but "monkey sh*t and sawdust", and I'll bet that you can and will be the first to confirm that as factual, can't you? After all, you've probably inspected all of the plants and know firsthand that they are run at the level of a slaughterhouse that U Sinclair documented years ago ....
We'll just choose to ignore the millions of articles that might suggest otherwise. So be it. Two can play that game ...
There are not millions of articles supporting the use of supplements. Quite the contrary.
Quote:
Heck, let's start with Thalidomide. Nothing to see here, it was a perfectly safe efficacious prescription drug with no known side affects, right? Went through rigorous testing and clinical trials perfectly, right? If there were any problems here, they were so miniscule that the benefit of the drug was assured, right? Hit the marketplace and folks were totally protected by the USP quality of the production under the FDA approval process, right? Only there really were some undesirable effects, weren't there? which didn't come out until the drug was used by a large group of people?
or maybe you just don't recall that there was a problem with this side effect? there's a fair number of folk who have had their lives somewhat adversely impacted by the use of this drug, which was an FDA approved product. Too bad for them, huh? and the company that made the product got off scott free, right? everybody was happy, right?
There's a small problem with your story. The FDA never approved thalidomide for nausea. It is now approved for treating a certain skin condition (leprosy) and multiple myeloma. People who take it do so with extensive counselling about the risks during pregnancy.
Quote:
Wanna' go down this road with a host of other drugs which have been removed from the marketplace because they had just a few little "side effects"? How about the ones that the FDA has removed from the market because they didn't do what they were claimed to do to begin with? Wanna' bet I can't start posting a fair number of those, too?
Let's try a few more, OK? from Bloomberg, in 2009
"Half of the 21 drugs pulled from the market in the U.S. for safety reasons since 1995 involved heart complications, a finding that is spurring Congress and doctors to call for closer government review of side effects.
The products were on the market from 11 months to 30 years, based on a review of Food and Drug Administration data obtained by Bloomberg. GlaxoSmithKline Plc’s diabetes drug Avandia, marketed for 11 years, narrowly avoided a recall last week when the FDA restricted its use as a result of a link to heart ailments only uncovered after the drug was in wide use. The agency is now reviewing heart risks for Abbott Laboratories’ diet pill Meridia, sold since 1997."
I'll point us in the direction of dexenfluramine and fenfluramine; I know two people who got heart valve problems from these two. A minor side effect, no? Just keep on telling us that the FDA approval process is air tight and folks are imagining that they are getting ill from the prescription meds they took under a doc's care and supervision, and everything's gonna be OK, right?
Just who do you think you're fooling?
Overall, my take on the marketplace is that there's been a lot more folk injured or killed with prescription drugs in the USA than ever adversely affected by supplements .... OH, I forgot. Those supplements are merely expensive placebos, so they can't be efficacious and are simply a waste of money ... according to you. Yup, indeed, the pharmaceutical industry under the auspices of the FDA is incapable of making mistakes compared to the sloppy uncontrolled environment of the supplement industry snake oil sales people.
I heard a rumor that most of the snake oil supplements are nothing but "monkey sh*t and sawdust", and I'll bet that you can and will be the first to confirm that as factual, can't you? After all, you've probably inspected all of the plants and know firsthand that they are run at the level of a slaughterhouse that U Sinclair documented years ago ....
Food supplement recalled because it contained a prescription weight loss drug and an erectile dysfunction prescription drug:
As I said, manufacturing problems are common and supplements often contain ingredients not on the label. The FDA will not get involved until after they are sold.
"In the last four years, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has found violations of manufacturing rules in half of the nearly 450 dietary supplement firms it has inspected, according to agency officials."
"'It's downright scary,' said Daniel Fabricant, head of the FDA's Division of Dietary Supplement Programs. 'At least half of industry is failing on its face.'
The FDA began conducting inspections in 2008 to assess compliance with new regulations governing the manufacturing, packing and holding of dietary supplements. Since then, 1 in 4 dietary supplement companies inspected by the agency have received a warning letter, considered a significant enforcement action."
By the way, Fabricant was formerly vice president of the Natural Products Association, the largest trade group in the U.S. representing supplement manufacturers and distributors.
Firstly, your ignorance of Thalidomide is staggering. It was developed and marketed as a sleep aid, not a nausea drug. For it's intended purpose, it was a very effective drug ... only there was a huge gap in the clinical trials when it came to pregnant women, who weren't tested. Your apparently aren't aware (or choose to ignore) the devastating birth defects it caused in almost 100% of the pregnancies in which it was prescribed. It was big news when the problems were publicized because it showed up the flaws in the approval/clinical trials process here in the USA; it was one of the very first drugs to receive such massive publicity amongst those drugs that were causing problems.
My mistake. For sleep, not nausea.
However, you might want to read a bit about the history of thalidomide in the US before you call me ignorant.
"Fifty years ago, the vigilance of FDA medical officer Dr. Frances Kelsey prevented a public health tragedy of enormous proportion by ensuring that the sedative thalidomide was never approved in the United States.."
Got that? It was never approved as a sedative in the US.
What happened was that laws concerning the safety and effectiveness of drugs were strengthened.
"In response to the public uproar [over thalidomide birth defect reports], in 1962 Congress enacted the Kefauver-Harris amendments to the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act. Thanks to these new amendments, manufacturers had to prove that a drug was not only safe, but also effective. Approvals had to be based on sound science. Companies had to monitor safety reports that emerged postmarket and adhere to good manufacturing practices that would lead to consistently safe products. And there were new protections for patients."
In essence, your wall of text just shows the FDA doing its job. Many of the recalls happen because the postmarket surveillance picks up problems that the studies done prior to approval did not detect because the adverse effects were not common enough to show up.
Quote:
At that, you've consistently asserted that supplements are nothing but expensive placebo's ....
And you have provided no evidence to say that they are not just that --- expensive placebos.
There is no evidence that taking supplements will make you live longer. There is evidence that taking some, such as iron and some of the antioxidants like vitamin E, may be harmful.
The best way to get vitamins and minerals is from food. Most Americans are wasting their money on supplements.
Got that? It was never approved as a sedative in the US.
Correct, it was never "approved" by the FDA, but it was available under their limited approval for "investigational studies". That's where most of the women in the USA who bore thalidomide babies got their doses.
What happened was that laws concerning the safety and effectiveness of drugs were strengthened.
"In response to the public uproar [over thalidomide birth defect reports], in 1962 Congress enacted the Kefauver-Harris amendments to the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act. Thanks to these new amendments, manufacturers had to prove that a drug was not only safe, but also effective. Approvals had to be based on sound science. Companies had to monitor safety reports that emerged postmarket and adhere to good manufacturing practices that would lead to consistently safe products. And there were new protections for patients."
In essence, your wall of text just shows the FDA doing its job. Many of the recalls happen because the postmarket surveillance picks up problems that the studies done prior to approval did not detect because the adverse effects were not common enough to show up.
And you have provided no evidence to say that they are not just that --- expensive placebos.
OK, I accept that you deny that I'm personally experiencing positive results as described in earlier detailed posts, despite the FACT that you have "provided no evidence" and have no ability to dispute or know what it is I'm experiencing. I do know for sure that repeated blood tests performed under my doc's supervision confirm the beneficial results for me.
There is no evidence that taking supplements will make you live longer. There is evidence that taking some, such as iron and some of the antioxidants like vitamin E, may be harmful.
There is evidence that taking some of the prescription med's may be harmful, too. That's why a lot of them have been withdrawn from the marketplace, but there's a lot of them that still have enormous adverse effects. A PDR is a place to start seeing some of these documented problems.
The best way to get vitamins and minerals is from food. Most Americans are wasting their money on supplements.
Agreed, the "best way" is from food. Unfortunately, the depletion of soils in the USA production cycle of industrial agriculture has severely impacted the nutritient content of many of our foods. Together with the processing and additives, and the packaging, there's a lot that's less than desirable about the American food supply these days. Many Americans are finding that their diets are deficient in some nutrients and supplements can be an effective way to correct that situation. We see huge segments of the marketplace where food supplementation is a given ... for example, dairy products, with Vit D added milk the standard of the industry.
Agreed, the "best way" is from food. Unfortunately, the depletion of soils in the USA production cycle of industrial agriculture has severely impacted the nutritient content of many of our foods. Together with the processing and additives, and the packaging, there's a lot that's less than desirable about the American food supply these days. Many Americans are finding that their diets are deficient in some nutrients and supplements can be an effective way to correct that situation. We see huge segments of the marketplace where food supplementation is a given ... for example, dairy products, with Vit D added milk the standard of the industry.
Just a note: when you place comments within a quote, it is difficult to respond to them.
With regard to thalidomide, although it was a sedative, it was given to pregnant women for morning sickness, so my previous statement about its use for nausea was correct.
"Unknown to FDA, the firm distributed Kevadon [thalidomide] widely in the U. S. to nearly 20,000 patients, including some pregnant women." Emphasis mine.
"Though thalidomide was never approved here, FDA identified 17 cases of thalidomide-linked birth defects in the U.S., and the agency launched a nationwide program to recover all supplies of the drug."
As best I can tell, there are no statistics on how many pregnant women took the doses that ended up in the US. Some of the women may have obtained the drug in other countries.
Anecdotal stories like your personal experience with supplements are not scientific evidence. Every supplement package you pick up will carry the disclaimer that it will not treat any diseases. What is lacking is any evidence that supplements help healthy people in any way.
Actual measurements of nutrients in some veggies from 1950 compared to 1999:
The comparison was difficult for several reasons, including variations in methodology. Also, different varieties of a single vegetable may have different nutrient profiles.
The authors note that loss of nutrients is most notable for refined sugars, separated oils and fats, rice, and refined flour.
"Thus, for those concerned about nutrient losses, the most important measure is to partly replace these known-depleted staples with more nutrient-dense whole foods, especially vegetables, fruits, whole grains, nuts and beans. This remedy is similar to dietary changes already widely recommended in developed countries. Plant cells require most human nutrients for their own functioning. They cannot grow, much less be viable commercial food crops, without synthesizing or acquiring their own needed levels of a broad range of nutrients. Thus, no whole plant food can be as broadly depleted of nutrients as are refined sugars and separated fats and oils."
So, yes, you can still get all the nutrition you need from real foods.
Anyone who is truly deficient in a vitamin or mineral needs to replace it, certainly. Deficiencies of many nutrients are rare in this country precisely because many foods are fortified with them. As I mentioned before, supplements may be indicated for people who do not include all the major food groups in their diet. Vegans need B12, for example. Dieters might want to take a multi.
Please note that vitamin D deficiency has more to do with inadequate exposure to sunlight than it does with a dietary deficiency. It has nothing to do with soil quality.
Eat your fruits and veggies rather than popping pills.
What you had is commonly known as "the niacin flush" which is an acute reddening of the skin and indicates a presence of too much niacin on board. YOu get the seame thing with another B Vitamin group, Thiamine.
Cut back your niacin now! Ya only need 100 mgs a day at most, and that's if you're not getting any B Complex vitamins from your diet. Leafy greens are good; so id dairy products.
Always take niacin on a full belly, and make sure you stay well-hydrated.
I've been taking it for about a week steady. I take 2 pills during lunch which are 500mg each. Yesterday I took 2 right before bed and when I woke up I was feeling itchy and felt like I was getting hotter and hotter within seconds of waking up and laying in bed. I get up, get naked in front of the mirror and I looked like a lobster. My skin was extremely red, like a really bad sun burn. I woke the wife up to look at it and she started googling what it could be from. So I do what anyone would do, I went to work. On the way she texts me and tells me it's most likely from the Niacin and should wear off in 1 hour if it is indeed from that. Well 45 mins after waking up I stop and get gas for my car and what do you know the itching and redness is gone. If it hadn't gone away by Noon I was going to go to the walk in clinic.
Suffice to say I'll try just one a day for now on.
I am taking niaspan for cholesterol.........Doctor said to take a low dose asprin one half hour before taking the niaspan an night.
I don't get the itch or flush.
I've been taking it for about a week steady. I take 2 pills during lunch which are 500mg each. Yesterday I took 2 right before bed and when I woke up I was feeling itchy and felt like I was getting hotter and hotter within seconds of waking up and laying in bed. I get up, get naked in front of the mirror and I looked like a lobster. My skin was extremely red, like a really bad sun burn. I woke the wife up to look at it and she started googling what it could be from. So I do what anyone would do, I went to work. On the way she texts me and tells me it's most likely from the Niacin and should wear off in 1 hour if it is indeed from that. Well 45 mins after waking up I stop and get gas for my car and what do you know the itching and redness is gone. If it hadn't gone away by Noon I was going to go to the walk in clinic.
Suffice to say I'll try just one a day for now on.
I haven't read the thread yet, but Niacin is very good for opening up capillaries and increasing blood flow. Get the flush free.
If supplements are safe and effective, why not make the supplement industry prove it?
Either they demonstrate safety and effectiveness (at which point the consumer should be willing to pay for the increased cost of the product for the company to pay for the testing) or they are unable to demonstrate either safety or effectiveness (at which point they stop selling a worthless product). Most would fail the effectiveness testing. In my opinion, selling people something that does no harm by misleading them that it will improve their health is actually doing harm. It's fraud.
When you buy an herbal supplement you really have no way of knowing whether you are getting what you think you are.
Vitamins and minerals are different. Choose them from USP tested lines and you are getting what you are paying for.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander. The drug companies ought to try doing what you suggest. All they have to do now is do their own studies; pay a fee to the FDA and Voila! The drug goes on the market. If they have to PAY for studies you can be darn sure they are going to get the results they WANT!
Additionally, if the TRUTH be told and you can look it up the 30 page study which references NUMEROUS CONVENTIONAL medical journals, based on only 20% of incidents reported nearly 750,000 people die every year "from following their medical doctors orders". That turns out to be a a GREATER NUMBER than those who die from cancer or heart disease or wars. These deaths are from diagnostics that went wrong; drugs that interacted the wrong way. Look up "Death by Medicine" Gary Null PhD along with several conventional medical doctors and naturopathic doctors did the research.
You won't find ANY deaths from natural medicine that was taken as prescribed under an experienced Naturopath's care like you do from DRUGS! You won't even find one every 10 years!
If you don't have a naturopath and want to take a supplement and you take prescription drugs, the SMART thing to do is GO SEE THE PHARMACIST! THEY are the experts when it comes to drug interactions. They can tell you whether a supplement will interact or not.
BTW if the supplement does interact it doesn't mean the supplement by itself is harmful, it is the chemical reactions when mixed with the powerful drugs which is harmful. I hope people can at least understand that.
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