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If one reads between the line, I think a decision has clearly been made, I doubt re-routing traffic around the city or a tunnel is being considered. Cost is clearly the driving force, one alternative suggested in the video is something along the lines of the Bunker Hill Bridge in Boston (which spans water btw). Simply put, a viaduct with "bells and whistles". Though the Bunker Hill bridge concept is an interesting concept, I reserve judgement on that proposal (design pending). At the risk of sounding cynical, I am afraid that short-term thinking will prevail and an "iconic" structure (noted in the video) is simply the status quo.
I would perfer a tunnel built where the viaduct now stands that will allow the university hill area and downtown to merge into one another, while addressing the concerns of businesses noted in the article. Though expensive in the short-term, the long-term economic benefits would be tremendous.
Though everyone agrees that the viaduct has to go, there is concern that re-routing traffic around the city will hurt businesses, including Destiny, 7 North Street intersection, etc. It seems that Destiny officials and Senator Defrancisco are on the same page on this one.
The four firms are: AECOM USA, Inc., based in Los Angeles; Parsons Transportation Group, based in Pasadena, Calif.; Stantec Consulting Service, based in Edmonton, Canada; and STV Inc., based in Pennsylvania and New York City. All of which speak volumes, this decison has been made.
The Bunker Hill Bridge concept is admittedly visually appealing, but a major issue is functionality. As the video (and sheer history) demonstrates, the construction of the I-81 viaduct destroyed a neighborhood. An issue with the tunnel is the exorbitant cost that wouldn't justify reweaving the urban grid to connect the Hill and Hospital Complex back to downtown.
However, what does the Bunker Hill concept do besides look nice? I would say the most detrimental impact of the elevated span is the lack of access. When approaching from the south, if you are not familiar with downtown you might naturally assume there is going to be more than one off ramp to access venues in Syracuse's core. If you don't exit at the Harrison/Adams offramp then you are already at the I-690 interchange before there is another opportunity to change your route. As I stated in my previous post, there is nothing compelling enough downtown to make a non-native go through the hassle of making a U to get back into downtown.
I my first post I showed a picture of the northside of Denver that was a "new urbanism" development with a movie theater, shops, and contemporary retailers. A similar development could reconstitute the urban grid somewhere south of Water Street and north of Presidential Plaza in-between Townsend St. and I-81. The development could be anchored by Target/Ross Dress for Less/Whole Foods or Trader Joe's type big box retailers and be mixed-use with condos and townhomes.
But I think the video makes a good point. In Pittsburgh, the designation of main interstate through the city was changed from I-76 to I-376 in the 1960s or early 70s I believe. The "beltway" was given the main designation of I-76. That essentially served as a big "bypass me" sign for central Pittsburgh. I'm sure you can all imagine that most development in Pittsburgh over the past few decades has occurred along I-76 and I-79 in the suburbs. Once again, sprawl without growth. I agree with the video that I-81 should exist in central Syracuse in some form, but should have some level of increased functionality from what is possesses now.
If the "new urbanism" idea were to be the way to go, park space, more apartments/housing and something like a Wegmans would be nice, especially if what I've read in the Rochester forum about Wegmans possibly looking into setting up 2 floor markets in urban areas. It would fulfill a need for a grocery store in Downtown Syracuse.
The Bunker Hill Bridge concept is admittedly visually appealing, but a major issue is functionality. As the video (and sheer history) demonstrates, the construction of the I-81 viaduct destroyed a neighborhood. An issue with the tunnel is the exorbitant cost that wouldn't justify reweaving the urban grid to connect the Hill and Hospital Complex back to downtown.
However, what does the Bunker Hill concept do besides look nice? I would say the most detrimental impact of the elevated span is the lack of access. When approaching from the south, if you are not familiar with downtown you might naturally assume there is going to be more than one off ramp to access venues in Syracuse's core. If you don't exit at the Harrison/Adams offramp then you are already at the I-690 interchange before there is another opportunity to change your route. As I stated in my previous post, there is nothing compelling enough downtown to make a non-native go through the hassle of making a U to get back into downtown.
I my first post I showed a picture of the northside of Denver that was a "new urbanism" development with a movie theater, shops, and contemporary retailers. A similar development could reconstitute the urban grid somewhere south of Water Street and north of Presidential Plaza in-between Townsend St. and I-81. The development could be anchored by Target/Ross Dress for Less/Whole Foods or Trader Joe's type big box retailers and be mixed-use with condos and townhomes.
But I think the video makes a good point. In Pittsburgh, the designation of main interstate through the city was changed from I-76 to I-376 in the 1960s or early 70s I believe. The "beltway" was given the main designation of I-76. That essentially served as a big "bypass me" sign for central Pittsburgh. I'm sure you can all imagine that most development in Pittsburgh over the past few decades has occurred along I-76 and I-79 in the suburbs. Once again, sprawl without growth. I agree with the video that I-81 should exist in central Syracuse in some form, but should have some level of increased functionality from what is possesses now.
Very thorough post, excellent points. I agree, the "Bunker Hill" concept will only serve an aesthetic value and nothing more (and appeasing the community), the status quo will prevail. If a canal or body of water existed between the unversity and downtown area, I could understand their thinking. As you point out, I-81 destroyed a thriving community. A "Bunker Hill" concept only reaffirms that original decision. I am not surprised that NYDOT is considering this approach, it is pure engineering..cost and functionality.
I have worked with engineers in the past and they play a vital role. However, they have a two dimensional view of transportation, i.e., getting from point A to point B efficiently at the least possible cost. Respectfully speaking, they do not have a long-term view of how transportation relates to economic development and the repurcusions of their decision, i.e. I-81 cutting through the 15 ward; destroying a vibrant neighborhood, segregating a city, i.e. downtown and the university and how the I-81 viaduct obsructs and impacts economic growth, etc.
I agree, a tunnel will cost a lot of money intially, but the economic benefits will be tremendous for years to come. The return on investment will pay for itself over time. NYDOT and local leaders need to realize that this decision will impact the community for another 50 to 75 years. I never thought I would see the day when Sen. Defrancisco and Bob Congel were on the same page of any issue, it is my understanding that both want the Bunker Hill approach.
Bunker Hill is only the status quo wrapped in a nice package. If they can spend billions on the Tappan Zee bridge downstate, they can do what is right and replace the viaduct with a tunnel. All issues would be addressed if they did so.
If the "new urbanism" idea were to be the way to go, park space, more apartments/housing and something like a Wegmans would be nice, especially if what I've read in the Rochester forum about Wegmans possibly looking into setting up 2 floor markets in urban areas. It would fulfill a need for a grocery store in Downtown Syracuse.
That is exciting news, I wonder if Wegmans had downtown Syracuse in mind when considering this concept and their new locations in Boston, DC and Virginia for this type of store. There are similiar concepts down here in Florida, Publix grocery stores (closest thing to a Wegmans, but no cigar) has a number of multi-level stores.
I can envision one of these markets in the proposed inner-harbor development or the proposed Sibley's project that stradles S. Salina Street and Armory Square. Even if Wegmans located a one story market downtown, that would fullfull a great need. I am not convinced that you need exactly 5,000 residents downtown before a grocery store can be considered as noted by local developers. If the occupancy rate remains at or around 99%, with strong demand for additional units reflected in a 25% increase in downtown residents, then the numbers are going in the right direction for a new store.
There are 2,700 residents living in downtown Syracuse according to downtownsyracuse.com, with more units on the way that will put that number over 3,000. Plus, you have the inner-harbor development coming on line and residents living in neighborhoods adjacent to downtown. It is enticing prospect for Wegmans to consider.
Very thorough post, excellent points. I agree, the "Bunker Hill" concept will only serve an aesthetic value and nothing more (and appeasing the community), the status quo will prevail. If a canal or body of water existed between the unversity and downtown area, I could understand their thinking. As you point out, I-81 destroyed a thriving community. A "Bunker Hill" concept only reaffirms that original decision. I am not surprised that NYDOT is considering this approach, it is pure engineering..cost and functionality.
I have worked with engineers in the past and they play a vital role. However, they have a two dimensional view of transportation, i.e., getting from point A to point B efficiently at the least possible cost. Respectfully speaking, they do not have a long-term view of how transportation relates to economic development and the repurcusions of their decision, i.e. I-81 cutting through the 15 ward; destroying a vibrant neighborhood, segregating a city, i.e. downtown and the university and how the I-81 viaduct obsructs and impacts economic growth, etc.
I agree, a tunnel will cost a lot of money intially, but the economic benefits will be tremendous for years to come. The return on investment will pay for itself over time. NYDOT and local leaders need to realize that this decision will impact the community for another 50 to 75 years. I never thought I would see the day when Sen. Defrancisco and Bob Congel were on the same page of any issue, it is my understanding that both want the Bunker Hill approach.
Bunker Hill is only the status quo wrapped in a nice package. If they can spend billions on the Tappan Zee bridge downstate, they can do what is right and replace the viaduct with a tunnel. All issues would be addressed if they did so.
I agree a tunnel would be very ideal. Think of how much space would be available for development while thru traffic zips on by underneath. The thing that would be most difficult would be connecting the tunnel with 690. It just a shame how the BIG picture isn't seen and how much potential this project really has for the city.
I wonder why they even held the workshops and asked for our design input knowing they were going to take the cheap route (no pun intended)
A Lot of the Interstates are underused upstate and can be converted in Urban Boulevards , heres the unofficial/official list of Urban Freeway relocations and boulevarding for the Northeast. I don't know what kind of Transit upstate NY will be getting when these highways are downgraded to boulevards...Urban Jersey is getting Bus Rapid and Light Rail lines , some cities are just beefing up bus service and others will be adding Regional Rail.
Highway Removal , Urban Boulevard list
Maine
I-295 in Portland will be transformed into a boulevard through the bayside neighborhood
Rhode Island
I-95 through Pawtucket will have Park Lids along the Depressed stretches
I-95 through Downtown Providence will have all depressed areas covered with Park space and high rises
I-195 through East Providence will have all depressed areas covered with Park space , with busway stations at select streets.
Connecticut
I-91 through Downtown Hartford will be covered with a Park lid
I-84 through Downtown Hartford will rebuilt as an underground highway from Exit 51 to Exit 46 in Parkville and the famous unfinished exit 46 demolished
I-91 through the Mill River section of New Haven will either be transformed into a boulevard or tunneled....
I-95 in various parts of New Haven and East Haven will have Park lids over the depressed sections
Connecticut 34 through Downtown New Haven is being converted to an Urban Street.
New York
I-287 through White Plains will have various depressed areas covered with Park space , at select intersections there will be future bus rapid stations
I-895 will be removed in the Bronx section of New York City and transformed into Park space
I-287/87 through South Nyack will receive a Park lid surrounding the New Interchange and will have a future Regional Rail station/ Bus Terminal
I-278 will have all depressed areas covered with Park space in Cobble Hill-Brooklyn , New York City....
I-81 through Downtown Syracuse will be converted to an Urban Boulevard
I-690 through Downtown Syracuse will be converted into an Urban Boulevard
NY 5/Buffalo Skyway will be demolished and converted to an Urban Boulevard
I-190 in Downtown Buffalo will be converted into an Urban Boulevard
I-490/Inner Loop in Downtown Rochester will be removed and replaced with an Urban Boulevard
NY33/Kensington Expressway will be capped with Parks over the Depressed Sections
NY158/Scajaquada Expressway will be converted to an Urban Boulevard
I-787 will be converted into an Urban Boulevard in Downtown Albany with possible CSX railroad relocation
I-787/US 20 Interchange will be demolished in Downtown Albany replaced with a lower Bridge that crosses the Hudson
I-787 will be converted into an Urban Boulevard in Watervliet, NY
New Jersey
I-78 through the South Ward of Newark will see its depressed areas covered with Park space and housing , along with express bus stops at select streets
I-280 through The Oranges and North Ward of Newark will see its depressed areas covered with Park Space and Housing , with Bus Rapid Stations at select streets
NJ 20 through Paterson will be transformed into an Urban Boulevard with Bus lanes
NJ 29 through Trenton will be Transformed into an Urban Boulevard with Bus lanes
NJ 4 through Fair Lawn will be transformed into an Urban Boulevard with Bus Lanes
NJ 440 through Jersey City will be transformed into an Urban Boulevard with Light Rail running along the Western side
US-1 through Trenton will see its depressed areas covered with Park Space
Eastern Pennsylvania
I-676 will see the rest of its Downtown Philadelphia depressed sections covered with Park space and high rises
I-95 along Philadelphia waterfront for now will be covered , but long term goals are to demolish this highway
Delaware
I-95 through Wilmington will be covered with Park space and low rise buildings
Maryland
I-83 in Downtown Boulevard will be demolished and rebuilt as an Urban Boulevard
US-40 through in Baltimore is being replaced with an Urban boulevard with Light Rail tracks on the side
There are what I call 2 Wild Cards in all of this, University Hill and OnTrack/Rapid Transit buses. I think if people think outside of the box, University Hill is really another "downtown" in the middle of the city given the amount of employment and people that could be present during the day. If leaders, companies and developers could look at University Hill as a continuation of Downtown or as an adjacent district with a similar function, then I think that could garner traction for those wanting an alternative to what we have now.
With OnTrack, I think it is a matter of making stops more visible, following through on extending the tracks to the Transportation Center and making it an attractive alternative to driving all the way in for work. I've always thought that the Transportation Center and/or the Regional Market lots could be used for a Park and Ride for OnTrack. Rapid transit buses could possibly work from Park and Ride locations designated usually during the time that the NYS Fair is going on as well.
With 38% of the metro's employment being within 0-3 miles of the CBD, I think that all of these things need to considered.
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Originally Posted by Steelers10
I know this topic has been discussed before, but it is still amazing (and unnerving) that I-81 through Syracuse will have eclipsed its "useful life" in less than 4 years.
I know I am in the severe minority here, but I always have thought the elevated portions of I-81 gave Syracuse an urbane, distinctly northern feel, much like thruways in the Bronx, for example. I do not buy that I-81 was the sole reason for the decline of inner city Syracuse. Urban decay and population decline occurred in ALL northern industrial cities, disastrous urban renewal projects or not. Having lived near or in cities along the I-81 corridor from Virginia to Syracuse, I have always had a fondness for I-81 in Syracuse BECAUSE it is the only city through which I-81 passes directly through. I don't believe people who pass through Syracuse would stop in the city if I-81 went around the city. No I-81 through Syracuse and a re-routing along I-481 would just lead to more suburban congestion and sprawl without growth (see: Pittsburgh).
With that being said, I do not forsee the elevate sections of I-81 being rebuilt. I honestly think building tunnels underneath the city would be prohibitively expensive. I am in favor of a more cut-and-cover approach, but with pedestrian-friendly overpasses rather than a complete rebuilding of the urban grid. Has anyone ever been to the northside of Denver? There are some very attractive examples of this in the northern suburbs. Sorry I couldn't get one complete image but if you can mentally piece the images below together you can kind of get a feel for this "new urbanism". I think the style of northside Denver along I-25 could be woven quite nicely into the urban fabric of Syracuse, especially with the similar terrain and winter weather. What do you guys think about reworking I-81?
I don't believe that you are saying having an elevated highway through your community gives a city a "distinctively northern feel"... What it shows is poor judgment and a lack of concern for the residents. When Robert Moses forced the Cross Bronx Expressway through the Bronx it started the destruction of that boro and the addition of the Thruway and every other interstate just made it worse. Don't you realise these elevated roadways cut cities and in many cases isolate sections. Boston as an example lost it's connection with it's waterfront . In many ways it becomes the american version of a Berlin Wall. I can't say if 81 contributed to the decay in parts of Syracuse.
How many choose to stop in the city because 81 passes through? I really don't think it makes much of a difference. Your prefered methods to redo it are nice but Syracuse is no Denver and I don't see that kind of financial investment being made. The southern cities are smarter to have a feeder interstate coming into the city and allowing those just passing through to keep on going.
I don't believe that you are saying having an elevated highway through your community gives a city a "distinctively northern feel"... What it shows is poor judgment and a lack of concern for the residents. When Robert Moses forced the Cross Bronx Expressway through the Bronx it started the destruction of that boro and the addition of the Thruway and every other interstate just made it worse. Don't you realise these elevated roadways cut cities and in many cases isolate sections. Boston as an example lost it's connection with it's waterfront . In many ways it becomes the american version of a Berlin Wall. I can't say if 81 contributed to the decay in parts of Syracuse.
How many choose to stop in the city because 81 passes through? I really don't think it makes much of a difference. Your prefered methods to redo it are nice but Syracuse is no Denver and I don't see that kind of financial investment being made. The southern cities are smarter to have a feeder interstate coming into the city and allowing those just passing through to keep on going.
I agree with that last part and I think the "newness" of Southern cities is a positive in that respect, as much of the development is newer and the ability to annex allows for adjustments, in a sense.
While Syracuse isn't Denver, with the events it has or gets, along with the proximity of Downtown and University Hill to each other, it could help increase vibrancy and development. This also considering Syracuse's location as well.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 05-06-2013 at 05:25 PM..
A Lot of the Interstates are underused upstate and can be converted in Urban Boulevards , heres the unofficial/official list of Urban Freeway relocations and boulevarding for the Northeast. I don't know what kind of Transit upstate NY will be getting when these highways are downgraded to boulevards...Urban Jersey is getting Bus Rapid and Light Rail lines , some cities are just beefing up bus service and others will be adding Regional Rail.
You are listing proposals/wishful thinking. There's thousands of proposals and ideas out there, pretty much any public works project has 20 other alternatives listed somewhere, and every random citizen group/NGO comes up with plenty more.
Your phrasing is insinuating that these things are happening, or are at least likely to happen at some point, which is largely false.
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What it shows is poor judgment and a lack of concern for the residents. When Robert Moses forced the Cross Bronx Expressway through the Bronx it started the destruction of that boro and the addition of the Thruway and every other interstate just made it worse. Don't you realise these elevated roadways cut cities and in many cases isolate sections. Boston as an example lost it's connection with it's waterfront . In many ways it becomes the american version of a Berlin Wall. I can't say if 81 contributed to the decay in parts of Syracuse. 
