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Both cities are over 100 sq. mi. and both cities have sprawl area. What I was referring to as walkable were the neighborhoods of Ybor City, West Tampa, and Downtown, which is practically the center of the Tampa core. Oterh areas such as University CDP, where the USF is located at, is a very dense area and one the densest in the Tampa Bay Area (https://www.city-data.com/forum/64041028-post5.html). Orlando, with the exception of downtown, doesn't really have a truly walkable neighborhood outside of downtown nor is there such a dense part of Orlando that I don't know of.
The only thing Orlando doesn't have is an Ybor City equivalent. But... Tampa doesn't have an equivalent to Baldwin Park. It doesn't have to be "old" to be walkable. And there are plenty of walkable neighborhoods outside of downtown, and areas that are just as dense as the most dense parts of Tampa.
By the way, I went to USF. We called the area "Suitcase City." It is a sprawly mess, and there is nothing walkable about it. The only feeling of density there are the cars piled up on the 8-lane boulevards. https://www.google.com/maps/@28.0545...8192?entry=ttu
The equivalent to West Tampa would be the area North of Colonial, which includes College Park, Advent Health Village, Audubon Park, Colonialtown North, and Baldwin Park, which is arguably the more walkable area of the two, and it's bordered by Winter Park to the North, and Downtown to the South: https://www.google.com/maps/@28.5719...8192?entry=ttu
Here are a few other "walkable" neighborhoods in Orlando, which are "practically at the center of the core":
Baldwin Park:
Basically, there are quite a number of walkable, dense neighborhoods within the Orlando core, outside of Downtown. Just as much as Tampa, if not more. But you're right, there is no Ybor City.
West Tampa though? Yeah, Orlando has multiple equivalents to that.
The urban density of both city are exactly the same, at just under 3,000/sq.mi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34
I didn't come here to be a Tampa Bay expert, but you realize that Tampa is a lot older than Orlando, meaning that it formed a lot of the Italian, Spanish, and Cuban communities in the early 20th century before Orlando was even thought of prior to WDW being built. Also, there's a Greek enclave at Tarpon Springs. It doesn't have the largest Asian nor Latino populations like Miami or Orlando, but the highest concentrations of Vietnamese is found mainly in Pinellas County, due to the shrimp industry in the Gulf Coast. TB is no Houston nor is it New Orleans, but the Vietnamese community is most concentrated in FL's west coast, and FL has the fourth largest Vietnamese population (108,825) only behind CA (815,682), TX (321,106), and slightly below WA (113,790).
There are Italians in Tampa?
Yes, the old Cuban culture can be nice, but it is mostly removed from the city, and many of those old neighborhoods have been reduced to abandoned lots, crumbling infrastructure, and downright blight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34
As Tampa grows, it may have a greater need for mobility and building highways and expressways will not help Tampa in the long run. Just look at Detroit. In 1940, it was the fourth largest city in the US and in 1950, it boasted a population of over 1.8 M people, now it's a shell of itself because it never diversified it's economy nor did it diversify it's population like many other cities did, and it continues to decline despite Mayor Duggan's best efforts. Tampa has a clean slate and I don't know about you, but the bigger Tampa gets, it can't rely on the bus to constitute mass transit. Even LA, Dallas, and Houston have light rail, so what's stopping Tampa other than the lack of demand for commuter rail.
They don't want it. It keeps getting shut down. Tampa is stuck 20 years behind, while other Florida cities surge ahead. I agree, it needs it, and would greatly benefit from it. Downtown is hard to get to from virtually anywhere, as the infrastructure is severely lacking, coupled with natural geographic constraints.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34
I've been to both cities, but that was in the past decade. I'd like to go again, just to compare to Miami, but the idea is that DC is a completely different city than Tampa and I'm not saying Tampa needs to look exactly like Miami, but Tampa does need to understand that even with it's vast land area, it can't build low scale and low density outside or downtown, which is why I like the Gas Worx project, since that will densify that area.
Gas Worx is great. Now, hopefully they do something to clean up the streets. No one wants to walk around Downtown Tampa at night, as it is lined with homeless camps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34
Some parts of Miami are at or below sea level, but not like New Orleans or Amsterdam. If anything, it's a combination of global warming, the ice caps melting, and Miami-Dade County not expanding it's drainage systems. The drainage systems can be expanded through bonds and federal funding, but the first two can't be controlled.
If you've ever watch the recent news, parts of NYC such as lower Manhattan, southern Brooklyn, and the Rockaways have been very prone to flooding. In fact, just about any neighborhood close to water is very prone, so do you suggest that New Yorkers leave New York because the water levels are rising in NYC as well?
I never suggested that people leave Miami -- just that what you are suggesting is no easy feat, for multiple reasons, including Florida's natural water table below the surface. Florida doesn't have the means to keep digging and expand like NYC does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34
It's not hard to increase the capacity of Miami's water and sewage capacity. It's a growing city and I can hope that the powers that be do not continue to use the aquifer as the main water source and invest in desalination plants.
It is an incredibly daunting and costly task.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34
Orlando and Tampa city proper are practically the same size and the only difference is that Tampa has older, ethnic neighborhoods, while Orlando is basically a more sprawly city with a lot of lakes. I've never heard of Mills/50 until you told me.
Again, nope. Orlando is not any more "sprawly" than Tampa. They are practically the same. Tampa is older, and has a slight neglected feel. Orlando is more modern, and significantly cleaner, with newer infrastructure. They are both equally dense, within their cores, and out of.
What sets the Tampa Bay region apart is Pinellas County, which is a completely different ball game, and feels like it's been pulled out of the Miami/Ft-Lauderdale/WPB area, minus the Latin influences.
Regarding this thread, the city that I can see being in prime position to explode in the future is neither Tampa nor Orlando -- it's Jacksonville. I predict that once it gets the ball rolling, it will be the next major Sunbelt boomtown... Whenever that is. It has everything it needs in place already in terms of infrastructure.
There was no demand for rail in Orlando either. It was the allure and prestige that came with having rail as an option. The difference between Tampa and Orlando was that the Orlando metro (multiple counties) lobbied for and got what they wanted. Tampa's approach to rail has been lackadaisical at best, akin to a group school project where one member does less than everyone else but still benefits from the hard work of others. That's Tampa, lol.
That's what I meant. Orlando just... wanted it... And to be fair, it was a mess at first, and could have been implemented MUCH better. Thankfully, there has been a solid push for TOD throughout, and finally, a new line connecting to the airport and convention center is under works.
Tampa's approach to anything related to infrastructure improvements has been downright sad. The fact that I-4 to I-275 still looks the way it does after all of this time says it all. I hear they're fixing it, finally... What the result will be, only time can tell.
That's what I meant. Orlando just... wanted it... And to be fair, it was a mess at first, and could have been implemented MUCH better. Thankfully, there has been a solid push for TOD throughout, and finally, a new line connecting to the airport and convention center is under works.
Tampa's approach to anything related to infrastructure improvements has been downright sad. The fact that I-4 to I-275 still looks the way it does after all of this time says it all. I hear they're fixing it, finally... What the result will be, only time can tell.
Malfunction junction was supposed to have been fixed 20 years ago when I was still in Florida. The end result will be overbudget, underwhelming and outdated.
With the amount of underutilized rail, Tampa Bay could've, should've had alternate transit resembling Metra, stretching in all directions incorporating Hernando, Pasco, Pinellas, Hillsborough, Manatee and Sarasota counties. Simply no excuse.
Malfunction junction was supposed to have been fixed 20 years ago when I was still in Florida. The end result will be overbudget, underwhelming and outdated.
With the amount of underutilized rail, Tampa Bay could've, should've had alternate transit resembling Metra, stretching in all directions incorporating Hernando, Pasco, Pinellas, Hillsborough, Manatee and Sarasota counties. Simply no excuse.
I agree, and the interstate system in Tampa is simply the worst. I am a native of Tampa who moved away in 1978. Lived in Sarasota, then Dade City, Sarasota again and now Lakeland. Tampa is growing rapidly but the infrastructure is and always will be lacking. Too many poor planning decisions made in the past and I can't see how they can be fixed now. So, while I believe it can grow into a bigger city, I don't see it being a "world class" city (which frankly is a meaningless term to me)
I didn't come here to be a Tampa Bay expert, but you realize that Tampa is a lot older than Orlando, meaning that it formed a lot of the Italian, Spanish, and Cuban communities in the early 20th century before Orlando was even thought of prior to WDW being built. Also, there's a Greek enclave at Tarpon Springs. It doesn't have the largest Asian nor Latino populations like Miami or Orlando, but the highest concentrations of Vietnamese is found mainly in Pinellas County, due to the shrimp industry in the Gulf Coast. TB is no Houston nor is it New Orleans, but the Vietnamese community is most concentrated in FL's west coast, and FL has the fourth largest Vietnamese population (108,825) only behind CA (815,682), TX (321,106), and slightly below WA (113,790).
So... you're using past data from over a decade ago to make your point, huh???
Last time I checked, I said that the highest concentrations, not necessarily the highest population, but concentrations are to be found within Pinellas County, due to the proximity of the Gulf Coast and the shrimping industry. You need to learn the difference between concentrations and populations. As far as cities and towns are concerned, Pinellas Park has the highest population and concentrations in FL thus far, and as far as metro areas are concerned, the Orlando MSA only beats the Tampa-St Petersburg MSA by a small percentage of 0.1%, not much, but Tampa-St Petersburg MSA has the higher number, so other than the county population and the MSA concentration, you're the one that's false!!!
So... you're using past data from over a decade ago to make your point, huh???
Last time I checked, I said that the highest concentrations, not necessarily the highest population, but concentrations are to be found within Pinellas County, due to the proximity of the Gulf Coast and the shrimping industry. You need to learn the difference between concentrations and populations. As far as cities and towns are concerned, Pinellas Park has the highest population and concentrations in FL thus far, and as far as metro areas are concerned, the Orlando MSA only beats the Tampa-St Petersburg MSA by a small percentage of 0.1%, not much, but Tampa-St Petersburg MSA has the higher number, so other than the county population and the MSA concentration, you're the one that's false!!!
Good lord… You said “Pinellas County” has the highest concentration. It’s at a virtual tie with Orange County, the latter of which actually has Asian enclaves, while the former does not. Orange County has the highest number by a significant margin. 4,000 is a LOT considering the size of these counties.
Again (and as others have suggested numerous times in your clueless posts about Florida) visit these cities, spend some time in each one, and you might not embarrass yourself so much with your ridiculous posts and topics. It’s obvious that you know absolutely nothing about these places.
I’ll admit that the data I posted was the result of a quick Google search, but I assure you, no one who spends time in either place is going to observe a higher concentration in Pinellas County than in Orange from a visual standpoint. Pinellas County feels very black and white, with very little in between. And your data still proves you wrong, as you said it’s more highly concentrated on the West Coast, when your own numbers show the Orlando MSA at 0.9% vs Tampa Bay’s 0.8%.
Last edited by kbtoy7891; 03-12-2024 at 06:52 PM..
The only thing Orlando doesn't have is an Ybor City equivalent. But... Tampa doesn't have an equivalent to Baldwin Park. It doesn't have to be "old" to be walkable. And there are plenty of walkable neighborhoods outside of downtown, and areas that are just as dense as the most dense parts of Tampa.
By the way, I went to USF. We called the area "Suitcase City." It is a sprawly mess, and there is nothing walkable about it. The only feeling of density there are the cars piled up on the 8-lane boulevards. https://www.google.com/maps/@28.0545...8192?entry=ttu
The equivalent to West Tampa would be the area North of Colonial, which includes College Park, Advent Health Village, Audubon Park, Colonialtown North, and Baldwin Park, which is arguably the more walkable area of the two, and it's bordered by Winter Park to the North, and Downtown to the South: https://www.google.com/maps/@28.5719...8192?entry=ttu
Here are a few other "walkable" neighborhoods in Orlando, which are "practically at the center of the core":
Baldwin Park:
Basically, there are quite a number of walkable, dense neighborhoods within the Orlando core, outside of Downtown. Just as much as Tampa, if not more. But you're right, there is no Ybor City.
West Tampa though? Yeah, Orlando has multiple equivalents to that.
The urban density of both city are exactly the same, at just under 3,000/sq.mi.
I'll leave it here, but I'm not Tampa Bay expert nor am I an Orlando expert. A lot of people don't know Orlando like that outside of WDW and Downtown. It doesn't help that Orlando only has the Magic and Orlando City (if people really watch MLS like that)while Tampa Bay is represented by three major sports teams (the Bucs, the Bolts, and the Rays), giving that area much more visibility for sports fans.
The point I made is that because Tampa is a much older city than Orlando, it was able to grow to 100K by 1930, and to 200K by 1960 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa,...a#Demographics), during FL's early boom and once air conditioning became readily available, that's when FL cities really boomed! It helped Tampa's exposure to the American populace when they received the Bucs during the 1976 NFL expansion, albeit the first couple of seasons, the team became the first NFL team to have a winless season in 1976 and that continued well into 1977 when they were able to finally beat, out of all teams, the NO Saints, who weren't known to be a offensive powerhouse , but a team which made the blooper reels every season!
Orlando is a late comer to the major city race. It didn't get 100K until 1980, and reached 200K just a little over last decade, in 2010 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orland...a#Demographics). Orlando boomed largely because of WDW being built in 1972, which transformed that place from a regional city into a major city by 2010. The energy is young, but Tampa has the stronger bones in this competition!
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbtoy7891
There are Italians in Tampa?
Yes, the old Cuban culture can be nice, but it is mostly removed from the city, and many of those old neighborhoods have been reduced to abandoned lots, crumbling infrastructure, and downright blight.
The Cubans are currently the largest Latino population, at least in Hillsborough County last time I've checked. It can vary, but the Cuban are the dominating Latino presence in Tampa, at the very least ever since their days in the cigar factories back in the early 20th century.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbtoy7891
They don't want it. It keeps getting shut down. Tampa is stuck 20 years behind, while other Florida cities surge ahead. I agree, it needs it, and would greatly benefit from it. Downtown is hard to get to from virtually anywhere, as the infrastructure is severely lacking, coupled with natural geographic constraints.
Then it Tampa Bay's loss if they don't want it. If Tampa wants to be the FL equivalent of Detroit, where it doesn't have a mass transit system, then it's going to have to reap the heavy traffic that plagues such cities!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbtoy7891
Gas Worx is great. Now, hopefully they do something to clean up the streets. No one wants to walk around Downtown Tampa at night, as it is lined with homeless camps.
Let's waiter it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbtoy7891
I never suggested that people leave Miami -- just that what you are suggesting is no easy feat, for multiple reasons, including Florida's natural water table below the surface. Florida doesn't have the means to keep digging and expand like NYC does.
It is an incredibly daunting and costly task.
It was harder for NYC to literally expand during the mid to late 19th century when it was actually made up of three separate cities such as Long Island City, Brooklyn, and New York, which consisted of the entirety of the island of Manhattan. It managed to gobble up the Bronx, all of Queens, and Staten Island, but Brooklyn has a fierce resistance until it was bought out by NY pols back in those days. NYC was very fortunate to have New York Harbor, because if it didn't then it would've looked like what Hampton Roads looks today, a major area with a great harbor, but not enough people!
Miami has great location as it's not just the closest American city to the Caribbean and Latin America, but it's the closest American city to the Arab World and to most African points simple due to geography, as well as being on the Eastern Seaboard, can compete with Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, and DC for connections to Europe.
Again, nope. Orlando is not any more "sprawly" than Tampa. They are practically the same. Tampa is older, and has a slight neglected feel. Orlando is more modern, and significantly cleaner, with newer infrastructure. They are both equally dense, within their cores, and out of. DC and Chicago was built from a swamp. If those two cities can be built with those obstacles, than what's stopping Miami other than the aquifer? Miami will eventually find alternative sources of water in order to survive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbtoy7891
What sets the Tampa Bay region apart is Pinellas County, which is a completely different ball game, and feels like it's been pulled out of the Miami/Ft-Lauderdale/WPB area, minus the Latin influences.
Tampa has a stronger Latin feel from the early years until the 1950's and 1960's when people from the Midwest and the Northeast started to move to the Tampa Bay area. You have two major cities than are accessible by bridge in Tampa Bay, while in South FL, the largest cities are separated by 30 min intervals (Miami - Ft Lauderdale - WPB).
Good lord… You said “Pinellas County” has the highest concentration. It’s at a virtual tie with Orange County, the latter of which actually has Asian enclaves, while the former does not. Orange County has the highest number by a significant margin. 4,000 is a LOT considering the size of these counties.
Again (and as others have suggested numerous times in your clueless posts about Florida) visit these cities, spend some time in each one, and you might not embarrass yourself so much with your ridiculous posts and topics. It’s obvious that you know absolutely nothing about these places.
I’ll admit that the data I posted was the result of a quick Google search, but I assure you, no one who spends time in either place is going to observe a higher concentration in Pinellas County than in Orange from a visual standpoint. Pinellas County feels very black and white, with very little in between. And your data still proves you wrong, as you said it’s more highly concentrated on the West Coast, when your own numbers show the Orlando MSA at 0.9% vs Tampa Bay’s 0.8%.
The Tampa Bay Area is a fairly sprawling area, constituting two major cities. As far as Vietnamese culture is concerned, Pinellas is more concentrated than Orange at this point. Orange may have the raw numbers, but Pinellas is the more concentrated county for Vietnamese in FL. You do know what concentrated means, right??? It's the population of a particular group in an area divided by the total population of that area, so Pinellas wins the concentration contest.
Also, I never said that Orlando didn't have Vietnamese communities, as it has some, but remember, I wasn't talking about the highest population but the highest concentrations, and that's what Pinellas has over Orange at this point!!! It's not a tie when you have about 0.2% above another county. It just proves that Pinellas has slightly more Vietnamese people by concentration, not necessarily by population.
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