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I dont want to to portray myself as advanced. What does that mean anyways? If you do not have a mental handicap, we all have the same genetic capacity to understand math, language, logic, memorize data, conceptualize. All the levels of thinking that separate us from animals, excluding those of an artistic nature, all us can do equally as well as anyone else. What really separates us is discipline, and motivation.
Well that is just plain wrong. Intellectual ability is going to be on a bell curve like every other trait from height to skin color to musical ability.
For example, I have a near photographic memory, I can actually picture a page I have read (skimming does not work for me) and read from it including page numbers. Most people do not have this trait but my father and grandmother both do. I did not "work hard" to gain this skill it is just an innate ability.
And FYI, different people also learn differently. This is called learning styles and is supported by a ridiculous amount of research.
So just because you learn best by reading (and I do as well) the majority of the population does not learn best by this method. Due to the nature of public school, teaching is geared towards delivering instruction to the majority of students in the way in which they learn best (most people are better auditory learners than reading learners btw).
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When I was in high school, heck, even middle school. I knew what I wanted to know. I knew what questions to ask. But I had to follow what the teacher was doing. I had to wait until the teach arrived at something I wanted, and that happened sporadically. I found classes difficult for this reason, and not lacking the intellect to grasp the subject matter.
And when there is no textbook what are you going to do? I teach two courses where there are no textbooks (at least not that a high school student could read). I also find what you are saying highly suspect, if for no other reason than you can read ahead in textbook all you want. It is not as if a teacher can stop you. Besides if you were so gifted that you could master the material just by reading you would have been classified GT through your HESPA or GEPA scores and placed accordingly.
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There were couple of kids on my town who eventually got shipped off to "better schools" like Bergen County Academies, or Bergen Tech, ehh something like that. I guess they would be what you consider "advanced". Having known those kids, I will tell you they are not advanced, they just fit the nerd stereotype, and they were "good students" FOR THAT GROUP OF TEACHERS.
I teach in the district that BCA is trying to emulate. First, ANYONE can apply to those schools. No one gets shipped off. So YOU could have applied to an academy regardless of your grades or teachers.
I can tell also you that "those kids" have to pass entrance exams to get in. They also typically score in the top 1-5% for SATs, generally what anyone on the planet considers and advanced student. Grades count for very little and teacher recommendations for nothing.
Actually most of the time the teach did not have the answer, or at most it was a half arsed answer. When I was able to muster the power to listen to them, I would ask a questions, my teachers would flub on the answers. Maybe they just did not know the answer (this happened in college too), or they did not want to tell me. I was a rotten student to have. I acted out from time to time, and gave my teachers a badtude because I was frustrated.
You mention "critical thinkers". Define critical thinking please. I always hear this term, but no absolute description of it.
In my english classes, we went over pieces of literature, and . . . . I dont even remember what went on, but it sure was not about rhetorical devices, techniques used in movies. Now that you mentioned that, I wished it was. All I would have needed was an example of each kind too.
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Originally Posted by Sagitarrius48
This is sad on many levels. First, that you think NO teacher has anything to offer and apparently having a closed mind going into the class, kept it that way.... But wait! You had written that if you HAD questions the next day, he/she HAD the answer! So apparently the teacher had SOME use/value. Second, that if you are telling me the truth, EVERY teacher just lectured (and it never changed), gave homework but then what? You just moved on without discussing anything? Applying what you learned to other areas or today?? Analyzing the material to see what the WHY's and HOW's were of the author and his/her work? Thinking about it on a grander scale? I find it very hard to believe that not one teacher didn't do this. And what about your writing? No teacher gave you input so you could become a better one??
At my school, hardly any teacher just "lectures". Yes, we teach a principle or in my case, a new literary era so my students understand where the author is "coming from" (as history MAKES literature), but unless a student does his/her job in my class, I cannot REALLY do mine which is to direct discussion and analyzation, to see how these pieces connect with today and are thus still important; to find out just what makes an American and in the process, they discover who they are; to help them become better critical thinkers and writers as they look at techniqes/rhetorical devices used in writing and oratory and even movies (THANKS to American Rhetoric and Youtube!) ...and I could go on and on. And if this is "antiquated", then I am glad this is my last year. And tthis is why too, I am totally against user_id and what he proposes...that computer programs can teach all of this in the guise of computer aides.
I dont want to to portray myself as advanced. What does that mean anyways? If you do not have a mental handicap, we all have the same genetic capacity to understand math, language, logic, memorize data, conceptualize. All the levels of thinking that separate us from animals, excluding those of an artistic nature, all us can do equally as well as anyone else. What really separates us is discipline, and motivation.
When I was in high school, heck, even middle school. I knew what I wanted to know. I knew what questions to ask. But I had to follow what the teacher was doing. I had to wait until the teach arrived at something I wanted, and that happened sporadically. I found classes difficult for this reason, and not lacking the intellect to grasp the subject matter.
There were couple of kids on my town who eventually got shipped off to "better schools" like Bergen County Academies, or Bergen Tech, ehh something like that. I guess they would be what you consider "advanced". Having known those kids, I will tell you they are not advanced, they just fit the nerd stereotype, and they were "good students" FOR THAT GROUP OF TEACHERS.
I live in Michigan.
If you thought you knew the material then you should be able to test as advanced, meaning you already knew the material before it was taught. If you did, you should have skipped the class. If you didn't, you needed to take the class. Every year I have to post an exam for students who want to test out of my class. So far, none have.
You do not know everything you need to learn in middle school (that is youthful ignorance talking). The reason we have classrooms and teachers is that there is more students don't know than they do know. That's why they need a guide. It's only after you've received an education that you can reflect back and decide you didn't need something. I once thought like you but now that I look back, I realize that I needed, in some way, just about everything I was taught. I may have forgotten the material itself but, to paraphrase Einstein, Education is what is left after you've forgotten everything you learned in school. It's not about WHAT you learned so much but THAT you learned and grew because of it.
And I'd disagree that we all have the same abilities. We don't. Ever heard of IQ? My kids are about 10 points apart in IQ and it makes a difference. So does personality and drive. I'm good at math and science but I stink at writing unless I'm writing about math and science. We're all different.
Well that is just plain wrong. Intellectual ability is going to be on a bell curve like every other trait from height to skin color to musical ability.
For example, I have a near photographic memory, I can actually picture a page I have read (skimming does not work for me) and read from it including page numbers. Most people do not have this trait but my father and grandmother both do. I did not "work hard" to gain this skill it is just an innate ability.
And FYI, different people also learn differently. This is called learning styles and is supported by a ridiculous amount of research.
So just because you learn best by reading (and I do as well) the majority of the population does not learn best by this method. Due to the nature of public school, teaching is geared towards delivering instruction to the majority of students in the way in which they learn best (most people are better auditory learners than reading learners btw).
And when there is no textbook what are you going to do? I teach two courses where there are no textbooks (at least not that a high school student could read). I also find what you are saying highly suspect, if for no other reason than you can read ahead in textbook all you want. It is not as if a teacher can stop you. Besides if you were so gifted that you could master the material just by reading you would have been classified GT through your HESPA or GEPA scores and placed accordingly.
I teach in the district that BCA is trying to emulate. First, ANYONE can apply to those schools. No one gets shipped off. So YOU could have applied to an academy regardless of your grades or teachers.
I can tell also you that "those kids" have to pass entrance exams to get in. They also typically score in the top 1-5% for SATs, generally what anyone on the planet considers and advanced student. Grades count for very little and teacher recommendations for nothing.
I have a four year old nephew with a photographic memory. He calls it his "picture taker". He refuses to use his "picture taker" when playing games. He tells his dad "My picture taker doesn't go outside". (my brother has a tendency to drill him and sometimes he just wants to be a kid and play).
I wish I had a memory. Mine stinks. I have to rely on understanding. Fortunately, that part of my brain works well. I couldn't memorize formulas in physics but I could derive them when needed using calculus.
Actually most of the time the teach did not have the answer, or at most it was a half arsed answer. When I was able to muster the power to listen to them, I would ask a questions, my teachers would flub on the answers. Maybe they just did not know the answer (this happened in college too), or they did not want to tell me. I was a rotten student to have. I acted out from time to time, and gave my teachers a badtude because I was frustrated.
You mention "critical thinkers". Define critical thinking please. I always hear this term, but no absolute description of it.
In my english classes, we went over pieces of literature, and . . . . I dont even remember what went on, but it sure was not about rhetorical devices, techniques used in movies. Now that you mentioned that, I wished it was. All I would have needed was an example of each kind too.
Critical thinkers challenge assumptions. Critical thinkers can decide for themselves if something is true or false. To me, it's the ability to think outside of the box. To be able to put things together in ways you were not taught to put them together. The ability to reach conclusions without being led to them. Critical thinkers do not take things at face value.
Most of my students are great at doing what they are told but few of them think critically. IMO, critical thinkers ask questions that go beyond the material being taught. That tie things together, or try to, that weren't taught together.
Teaching certainly CAN be done in an entertaining manner, and that doesn't have to negate the educational quality of it. If you engage your learners, you're always going to end up with more retention than if you present the material in a wholly unappealing manner, or make no attempt to make it interesting. That's nothing new. There have always been good teachers and bad teachers.
But even good teachers are pretty powerless to reach kids who simply have no intellectual curiosity. As a teacher, no, it's not my job to entertain you...but if you are interested in learning what I have to offer, you may find it interesting and entertaining. And nothing is going to interesting or entertaining to EVERYbody, ALL the time. This is life. I'm not interested in TEACHING everything that my kids need to learn, but that's life, too. We all have our preferences.
More the issue here is students who have NO preferences. The perpetually bored kids (brings to mind my mom's old statement if my siblings would ever complain of not being entertained enough by others..."Only boring people can be bored.") This plays out in the classroom, too. The kids who are bored with EVERYTHING are not kids who possess any real intellectual curiosity, and who aren't really interested in learning. Period. It always gets turned around as, "I'm bored because you're not challenging me enough." BS. Kids who are intellectually curious find their own challenges. They don't sit there like bumps on logs complaining that learning isn't as much fun as their gaming systems, so why bother. My job is not to rehabilitate intellectually lazy kids. Life will weed them out. My job is to present things my kids need to learn in a way that they CAN learn (my students all have special needs, and the information often has to be presented in a different format than it would for non-disabled learners). If they are entertained, bonus! If they're not, sorry for them, but life is full of things that aren't our favorites or that we don't find entertaining.
I work with kids with autism...some of the most difficult people in the world to ENGAGE in pretty much anything outside themselves, due to their particular disability. And if I can engage them, and help guide them toward things they may be intellectually curious about, I really have little sympathy for the average typical learner without any disabilities, who's just sitting back and being lazy and whining that he or she COULD learn, if only somebody would try a little harder to keep him or her entertained.
Can you start this in elementary school? If so, then what about the kids who have mastered the middle school curriculum by age 7 or 8? Are they allowed to attend high school?
If you have a 7 year old ready for algebra then that child does not belong in public school. There's got to be better places to send a student like that.
If you have a 7 year old ready for algebra then that child does not belong in public school. There's got to be better places to send a student like that.
But what do you do with them if they've already finished the pre algebra curriculum and they aren't ready for algebra?
I have a child who was moved ahead. She's in high school now and I'm seeing that letting her move ahead may not have been the best thing. Yes, her grade skips addressed her academic issues AT THE TIME but they seem to have created problems now. She's done with half of her high school classes but not quite, developmentally, ready for the rest and she, socially, out of her element. What do we do with her now?
I'm not convinced that allowing kids go move ahead is the right thing. Looking at dd now, I think it would have been better to have let her be bored back then so that she was with her peers now. I'm now thinking, what's wrong with being the smartest kid in the class? Do we really need to push kids forward to their level of incompetence? At this time, I see no gains for dd only costs. I wish I'd just let her be. Yes, her test scores were there. They still are. But she's not where she should be.
I have a four year old nephew with a photographic memory. He calls it his "picture taker". He refuses to use his "picture taker" when playing games. He tells his dad "My picture taker doesn't go outside". (my brother has a tendency to drill him and sometimes he just wants to be a kid and play).
I wish I had a memory. Mine stinks. I have to rely on understanding. Fortunately, that part of my brain works well. I couldn't memorize formulas in physics but I could derive them when needed using calculus.
Good illustration about how each person learns differently. I have a friend who will look like he is fading out when asked a difficult math problem, but if you look closer, you can see his eyes darting around with slight pauses as if he is looking at different places in the air in front of him. Then he blinks and gives you the answer. When I asked him, he shrugged his shoulders and said that he "sees" numbers in a cube pattern when asked a math problem, he just connects the numbers and variables and the answer pops out by itself.
I sure don't do that, neither does anyone else I know. Some have a different way of handling different processes, that is NOT a taught/learned thing.
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Critical thinkers challenge assumptions. Critical thinkers can decide for themselves if something is true or false. To me, it's the ability to think outside of the box. To be able to put things together in ways you were not taught to put them together. The ability to reach conclusions without being led to them. Critical thinkers do not take things at face value.
Most of my students are great at doing what they are told but few of them think critically. IMO, critical thinkers ask questions that go beyond the material being taught. That tie things together, or try to, that weren't taught together.
But what do you do with them if they've already finished the pre algebra curriculum and they aren't ready for algebra?
I have a child who was moved ahead. She's in high school now and I'm seeing that letting her move ahead may not have been the best thing. Yes, her grade skips addressed her academic issues AT THE TIME but they seem to have created problems now. She's done with half of her high school classes but not quite, developmentally, ready for the rest and she, socially, out of her element. What do we do with her now?
I'm not convinced that allowing kids go move ahead is the right thing. Looking at dd now, I think it would have been better to have let her be bored back then so that she was with her peers now. I'm now thinking, what's wrong with being the smartest kid in the class? Do we really need to push kids forward to their level of incompetence? At this time, I see no gains for dd only costs. I wish I'd just let her be. Yes, her test scores were there. They still are. But she's not where she should be.
I struggled with this same exact thing with my oldest son. My wife and I finally looked at where he was emotionally as the deciding factor and not just the academics... he stayed in the grade he was in. I have often wondered if that was the right decision, and your post has shown me that it probably was. So sorry your daughter is having a hard time now, but THANK YOU for sharing that with us.
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(my brother has a tendency to drill him and sometimes he just wants to be a kid and play).
