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Sounds like there is a philosophical argument at the root of this over what grades represent. In my mind, a grade shows the percent of the material a student has mastered. A C says the student is capable of performing 70% of the standards for the year. An A is at least 90% of standards. It has nothing to do with who else is in the class, or what their classmates are capable of.
The idea that the only way you can stretch student thinking is by grading more difficult problems is perplexing to me. I absolutely stretch some of my kids waaaaaaay further (that's differentiation!), but I don't penalize them if they can't figure out those challenge questions. We do all sorts of differentiated activities in class so that everyone is always stretching themselves just slightly beyond where they currently are. Their grade is only reflective of what the course standards are, though.
"The material" is the key here. In an advanced class, "the material" needs to be challenging enough to stretch the students. That will not be limited to the state's "standards" for that grade - or it should not. If it is, then we are trying to have "no child left behind" simply by preventing any from getting ahead.
Some will still get A's. Some students who have always gotten A's might get B's. B is not bad.
Students who get 70% (C- in most places) usually have not mastered 70% of the standards. Usually they have mastered fewer of the standards and get C- because administration doesn't tolerate lower grades than that.
It may not seem fair that Kid X has to learn more than Kid Y (in another class) to get an A. But is it fair that Kid Y has to work so much harder to learn? Each child should learn according to their capabilities. Or we should set the standards higher and stop insisting that C means failure and B means bad.
Back to OP's original situation: some parents, whose kids have not met the requirements for an A, are complaining. OP is under pressure to give them undeserved A's. She hasn't changed the requirement for an A to 98%, and she hasn't decided that only a certain number of kids are allowed to succeed.
Maybe my view point is different because of the situation I'm in. I have a different set of standards for remediation, regular, and honors classes. I am required (by the county) to teach higher level skills to students in honors classes. I do not require students in regular classes to master those same skills to achieve an A (though I will still throw problems like that out to the kids who are capable to stretch them and push them further).
For example, we did a unit on solving equations in October. Everyone had to solve multi step equations with variables on both sides, the distributive property, combining like terms, etc. In honors, I had to teach them absolute value equations, as well as set notation. During the functions unit, everyone had to learn domain and range. Honors had to learn to write it in interval notation. They were also given functions with fractional domains or ranges, while regular students got integers to deal with.
These are all given to me--it is what the county says students must master. I regularly push 4th period honors further than 3rd period honors because they're capable of handling it. We have really cool discussions, look at some more algebra II type problems, etc--but I'm not going to give a kid a B or C in algebra I because they can't do the algebra II concepts we discuss as stretch problems. If they understand 100% of the algebra 1 topics, they deserve an A in my opinion.
Sounds like there is a philosophical argument at the root of this over what grades represent. In my mind, a grade shows the percent of the material a student has mastered. A C says the student is capable of performing 70% of the standards for the year. An A is at least 90% of standards. It has nothing to do with who else is in the class, or what their classmates are capable of.
The idea that the only way you can stretch student thinking is by grading more difficult problems is perplexing to me. I absolutely stretch some of my kids waaaaaaay further (that's differentiation!), but I don't penalize them if they can't figure out those challenge questions. We do all sorts of differentiated activities in class so that everyone is always stretching themselves just slightly beyond where they currently are. Their grade is only reflective of what the course standards are, though.
It's not grading more difficult. It's teaching deeper and grading on deeper material. I believe students should be challenged. If an A is easy, it's time to up the ante and challenge them.
Last year, one of our AP teachers raked her students over the coals. They complained all year about how difficult it was to earn an A. Guess what. 100% of them passed the test with a 5 or 4. THAT's what happens when you challenge kids. She would have done them a disservice to have taught them the way the AP teacher a district over taught. According to the kids, her tests were harder than the AP test. They thought it was easy by comparison. Now THOSE are some kids who are prepared for higher education. By making it difficult to get the A, she made the AP test easy for them. What do you think would have happened if she'd made the A easy for them?
In the school where my kids attend students who score 90% in the course get an A-. The school tracks students so some classes have more able students than others. AP Calculus does not have the same distribution of students as Analysis of Functions even though both are math classes taken by seniors. So why should the distribution of grades be the same?
If students master 90% of the material they get an A no matter how many other people do the same. I don't advocate handing As out to anyone, however, if students master the content at a high level they should get an A. The teacher should make the course challenging but it is not the teacher's job to decide in advance how many As she is going to give. An A does not mean you are at the top of your class. It should be an objective measure of how much of the course content a student mastered. While bell curves work for large populations they do not apply uniformly to small groups.
My son was in an AP Calculus course last year with 12 students in the class. It was not the BC class so it was the second highest level of math offered at his school. This was an AP course so there were no filler grades. Grades were based strictly on quizzes and tests.
He got a B- first semester and a B second semester. He had one of the lower grades in the class. Thet teacher had mostly As with a few Bs in the class. No Cs. No Ds. Nobody failed. They all got 5s on the AP exam so they were all capable students. Are you saying the teacher should have forced a bell curve on the class and failed the lowest student in the class because somebody should fail in every class? If the answer to that is no then there is no reason to limit the top.
BTW-he is doing great in college despite being "handed" mostly As in high school.
See my post on the AP teacher in our school. You teach them more and you teach them deeper BECAUSE they are more capable. Yes, that impacts grades but an A in a good school should not mean the same thing as an A in a struggling school. The better school should deliver a better education.
The logic applies to all students. I'm teaching advanced geometry students. Whose parents are freaking out because they aren't getting A's. I'm looking at a pretty normal curve (except for a few too many E's (my classes are half advanced students and half kids on the normal track)) so I'm not seeing the problem. I do, however, think that an A in a higher performing school should mean more than an A in a lower performing school. It should mean the kids have learned more and demonstrated a deeper understanding to earn that A. Unto those who are given much, much is expected.
It's not grading more difficult. It's teaching deeper and grading on deeper material. I believe students should be challenged. If an A is easy, it's time to up the ante and challenge them.
That's what I mean though. Why do you have to grade those deeper problems? Why can't you do activities and have discussions and throw them challenges in class without it affecting their grade? Why should the kid who knows all of algebra 1 but isn't prepared for algebra 2 challenge problems get a B or C in algebra 1?
I absolutely cover more challenging material with my more capable classes (more specifically, with my more capable students). In any given class period, students are generally working on 3-4 levels of problems. I just don't count it towards their class grade. If everyone masters the course standards, everyone can have an A. We'll just enjoy moving forward and doing some cool extensions for the sake of learning.
That's what I mean though. Why do you have to grade those deeper problems? Why can't you do activities and have discussions and throw them challenges in class without it affecting their grade? Why should the kid who knows all of algebra 1 but isn't prepared for algebra 2 challenge problems get a B or C in algebra 1?
I absolutely cover more challenging material with my more capable classes (more specifically, with my more capable students). In any given class period, students are generally working on 3-4 levels of problems. I just don't count it towards their class grade. If everyone masters the course standards, everyone can have an A. We'll just enjoy moving forward and doing some cool extensions for the sake of learning.
Because the grade now reflects whether they get the deeper material. What you're missing is that most of my students chase grades. They don't do it if there isn't something in it for them. The second I say "this is not on the test" they tune me out. Kids today don't chase learning. They chase grades. However, you can get them to learn for the grade.
Sigh. You just don't get it. This is not a fight worth doing. Flunking many students is a problem.
Yes it is but the reason is always the same there. Lack of effort. It has nothing to do with how high I set the bar for the A.
This is also off topic for the original question which was how to handle parents who are upset because THEIR child does not have an A. Currently, about 10% of my students are getting A's. I'm ok with that. The E's bother me but I have little control over student effort. The kids who are failing, likely, aren't doing their own work when it comes to homework. They never know how to do the problem if I call on them in class. They're waiting for someone to crack open their heads and pour the information in. Lowering the bar for A's won't motivate or help them. These are separate issues.
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