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I voted on behalf of my husband's occupation. Since he's teaching high school, most of the students have already been sorted out. But there'll be an occasional freshman that will come into his regular math class that'll just completely blow past everyone. They might have been placed in his class because they test poorly.
There have been a handful though that might struggle with some basic calculations and then have this amazing grasp of conceptual mathmatics. Some ended up realizing they had gifts in the area of physics or music down the line. It's just that they'd never been offered the opportunity or the experience of either!
If that is the case, and I will assume so, that's a school doing a spectacularly crappy job educating gifted students.
I disagree. It's just they don't like being wrong. I find this in my physics classes a lot. These kids are used to being right. They're used to having the answers. Discovery type activities don't give them the answers up front. In fact, they work best when the students get it wrong. Then you get that "Oh Wow" moment when things are explained.
I find higher performing kids aren't risk takers. Not even the one I had last year who was homeschooled up until last year. I don't think I got him to open his mouth all year about anything having to do with the class.
I disagree. It's just they don't like being wrong. I find this in my physics classes a lot. These kids are used to being right. They're used to having the answers. Discovery type activities don't give them the answers up front. In fact, they work best when the students get it wrong. Then you get that "Oh Wow" moment when things are explained.
I find higher performing kids aren't risk takers. Not even the one I had last year who was homeschooled up until last year. I don't think I got him to open his mouth all year about anything having to do with the class.
Have read anything by Carol Dweck? She is a social psychologist from Stanford who works in the field of motivation and wrote a book called Mindset. I'm struck by your description of the high achievers in your physics class as non-risk takers, and I think you may find that Dweck's discussion of the differences between fixed and growth mindsets may go a long way toward explaining what you're seeing in the classroom.
I disagree. It's just they don't like being wrong. I find this in my physics classes a lot. These kids are used to being right. They're used to having the answers. Discovery type activities don't give them the answers up front. In fact, they work best when the students get it wrong. Then you get that "Oh Wow" moment when things are explained.
I find higher performing kids aren't risk takers. Not even the one I had last year who was homeschooled up until last year. I don't think I got him to open his mouth all year about anything having to do with the class.
I agree with formercalifornian.
That has been my biggest stuggle with my kids, their risk taking. I mean, you have a three year old 15 feet in the tree that they were just merrily skipping around now hanging out of the tree yelling "Hi Mom! Look at me!" Your heart is in your throat and you have to tie a ribbon 6 feet up around the tree and tell them that is all the higher they can go. If you dared tell they couldn't climb at all, they'd do it behind your back, then jump from those 15 feet to try and get out before you got to them. (I know that first hand, 8 or 9 years old. I thought I broke my bum but managed to walk straight by the time my mother got there. I was sore for a month.) One of the reasons that I homeschool is to foster this to some degree, and help them keep the energy but also learn to channel it in healthy and safer directions.
I can imagine my children just going with the hum drum of every day school, not taking risks, not making waves, because of spending years hearing that it is not socially acceptable. I did not want what was my fate to be theirs. I want them to challenge everything put in front of them, to not have to feel like they have to try and figure out what answer you the teacher is looking for, with the freedom to have the confidence to explore and discover on their own and reach the right answer, or coming up with a new one.
I remember someone gave me a book once that was just full of mind puzzles. There was one that was particularly perplexing, but I refused to look at the back for the answer. I kept trying and trying. Then I stopped, labeled every part of the puzzle with letters and then wrote out every possible senario. Then I tried out each one and finally found the one that worked. I was happy to be done with it...it had taken days. Then when I opened to the back of the book to check my answer, the answer staring me in the face was that there was no solution to this puzzle. I check and rechecked until I finally went upstairs to some family around the table, laid out papers with the puzzle written on it and had them try. After they gave up, I had them try it, each on their own, with my directions and sure enough it worked. I had many teachers who would not allow a disruption to reevalute a scenario that I knew was wrong or had another answer. I got things marked wrong even though they were right because that was not the "point" of the lesson. It did not take long before I kept it to myself to get passing grades, until my last couple years where I would just let loose on a teacher and fight tooth and nail if I knew they were wrong. My favorite teachers were the ones who would try and hide their smiles from the class and me. Some actually enjoyed having someone in their class caring enough to go above and beyond and not stay in that little box.
Becky, your anecdote is interesting, but I'm a little confused about what you agree with in my post.
Fixed mindset refers to a belief that intelligence is an unchangeable internal characteristic. Growth mindset, on the other hand, is a belief that intelligence can be increased through effort. Dweck's research demonstrated that children who adopt an entity (fixed) theory of intelligence are much less likely to take academic risks than those with a growth mindset. She further demonstrated that praising children for being smart has the potential to limit their intellectual growth because fixed mindset children will avoid situations that expose them to potential failure.
Last edited by formercalifornian; 07-22-2009 at 10:43 PM..
Becky, your anecdote is interesting, but I'm a little confused about what you agree with in my post.
Fixed mindset refers to a belief that intelligence is an unchangeable internal characteristic. Growth mindset, on the other hand, is a belief that intelligence can be increased through effort. Dweck's research demonstrated that children who adopt an entity (fixed) theory of intelligence are much less likely to take academic risks than those with a growth mindset. She further demonstrated that praising children for being smart has the potential to limit their intellectual growth because fixed mindset children will avoid situations that expose them to potential failure.
Interesting. As I've already said, I find that my higher students are not risk takers. They want to know they're right before they'll commit. It's easier to get my lower performing students to take a risk. Perhaps my higher students have a fixed theory of intelligence. If one did, then being wrong would be proof they weren't as high as they think.
I have a growth theory, which is probably why I was able to succeed in college after nearly flunking out of high school. I've always thought the more I did the more I'd be able to do and it seems to have worked. The only downside is I'm never done. There is no finished version of me. I'm a work in progress.
Perhaps my higher performing students have been praised for "being" smart as opposed to developing skills.
My daughter, is again, an example here. Her piano teacher does not praise her students. I don't praise her either. She gets constructive criticism from both her teacher and me. Her first encounter with praise of the type "YOU ARE TALENTED" came the first time she played for the church. She played at both services. During the first service, she enjoyed the performance and did very well. During the break between services, dozens of people heaped praise of the type "YOU ARE SO TALENTED" on her. Her second service performance was shaky at best and she, literally, ran for the door before anyone could say anything to her when church let out. The praise intended to build her up had crippled her because of the form. There is a world of difference between saying "YOU ARE GOOD" or "YOU are talented" and "I really liked your phrasing". The first two are judgements of the person. Something they are. The last an appraisal of something the person did. Dd's teacher always talks about what she can improve or did right she never tells HER she is anything.
I can see how hearing "YOU are smart" could cripple a child. When you just ARE something, you do not control it. "You are smart" and "I can see you worked hard on this" carry totally different messages. One is something the child IS and does not control while the other is something the child DID and controls.
Fortunately, for dd, most people are no longer that impressed with her. They've heard her play since she was 6. Now the more sane people are the only ones who say anything to her and most say the right thing which is something like "I really enjoyed your playing" or "I can tell you practice a lot" or simply "Thank you for playing for us today". They no longer gush about her "Gift" and "Talent" Telling her she's gifted or talented seems to be taken as a judgement. Something she feels she must live up to. Perhaps my better students feel they need to live up to the lable "smart" and a wrong answer won't do that so they take no chances.
I find, on open ended assignments, that my better students often don't even finish. Maybe they're afriad they won't be seen as smart.
Have read anything by Carol Dweck? She is a social psychologist from Stanford who works in the field of motivation and wrote a book called Mindset. I'm struck by your description of the high achievers in your physics class as non-risk takers, and I think you may find that Dweck's discussion of the differences between fixed and growth mindsets may go a long way toward explaining what you're seeing in the classroom.
Thanks. I think I'll check that one out of the library. What I'm reading here makes sense. These students having a need to demonstrate they ARE smart vs. they can learn makes sense.
It also makes sense with one particular student I had last year. She never did anything. Drove me nuts. Finally, about 3/4 of the way through the year, I started hovering over her in class and MAKING her do something. It took a while but one day, she got through a problem, then another and before you knew it, she was calling me over to show me what she had done. It makes sense that her mindset was "I can't", "I'm not smart enough" instead of "I need to learn how".
Becky, your anecdote is interesting, but I'm a little confused about what you agree with in my post.
Fixed mindset refers to a belief that intelligence is an unchangeable internal characteristic. Growth mindset, on the other hand, is a belief that intelligence can be increased through effort. Dweck's research demonstrated that children who adopt an entity (fixed) theory of intelligence are much less likely to take academic risks than those with a growth mindset. She further demonstrated that praising children for being smart has the potential to limit their intellectual growth because fixed mindset children will avoid situations that expose them to potential failure.
I was first responding to your post, then posting my own response to Ivory in regards to my children.
My idea in regards to this is to always put a child into an environment that is constantly challenging them based on their ability in that subject, regardless if they are behind or ahead. It should be challenging for them all the time, regardless of the age of the other students in the class. The same age expectations that schools have foster a fixed mindset, if they are the best in the class in every subject for years, then finally get into a class that challenges them, they do not know how to handle it, don't feel safe being wrong. If they are constantly in an environment where they have often been wrong, it's hard to deal with an environment where everything suddenly seems easy, they are still fearful of being wrong, and twice as excited when they are right. However, if they are always being challenged from day one, put into classes not based on age but ability by subject, this would not happen nearly as often. Average children have that challenge every single day because the curriculums are built for them.
I am a teacher and a mother of an overachieving daughter. My challenge with dd is that she is also a perfectionist - not a good combination. She reads and does math above grade-level (she's in the fourth grade) and plays the piano better than I did when I was 18. I have always encouraged her in everything she does but downplay the fact that she performs above grade-level because I've seen parents ruin great kids that way.
I hear totally see in my dd what Ivorytickler refers to - the need to be right. She used to melt when she didn't get a 100% on everything. But our new favorite phrase is "Perfect is boring - we do our best". I struggled with her 3rd grade teacher because SHE was a perfectionist and brought out that trait in my daughter. During a p/t conference I told that teacher how far my dd had come the previous year at accepting her best and not requiring 100% of herself on every task. She was flabbergasted - she couldn't believe I wouldn't continue to encourage that anything less than 100% wasn't okay.
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