Which major Tennessee city would be most likely to adopted city-county consolidation? (Memphis: school districts, property taxes)

[nashvols]

This is just an interesting topic to me. I'm not advocating city-county consolidation for any place -- I think it works well for some places, and might not work as well in others.

The main choices are Memphis, Knoxville, and Chattanooga. I have heard many proposals over the years for Memphis and Shelby County to adopt a Metro-style government like Nashville's and consolidate with the county...however, I know those proposals have all been shot down, as a lot of the residents in the unincorporated part of the county oppose it. I have heard similar proposals for Knoxville and Knox County, but not as recently. I haven't really heard anything about Chattanooga.

My question would be, where would it work and not work, and why?

-and-

Are there other places in Tennessee that you think would be more likely to adopt this style of government? Hartsville-Trousdale County and Lynchburg-Moore County are two examples of small towns/small counties consolidating.


For those not as familiar, a consolidated government effectively runs the major cities services and government, as well as those for the rest of the county. Police, fire, and schools are usually combined into one district, although some other already incorporated municipalities retain some of their own services or has those that the general county does not offer (like trash pickup).


For statistical purposes, here is what each county has in population and land area outside of already incorporated city boundaries.

Shelby County - 92,000 (est) 351 square miles
Knox County - 230,000 (est) 412 square miles
Hamilton County - 101,000 (est) 375 square miles

That would bring each city-county to a total of:

Memphis-Shelby - 769,000 (est) 665 square miles
Knoxville-Knox - 415,000 (est) 510 square miles
Chattanooga-Hamilton - 273,000 (est) 517 square miles

[strumpeace]

I voted 'other'.

Jackson and Madison County flirted with consolidating in the 1980s, but the vote was pretty lopsided against it. The main concern voiced by county residents at the time was that they didn't want the city school system (which had busing and was under a desegregation order) and the county school system to be united. However, in the early 1990s, the school systems consolidated anyway. So with the schools no longer being an issue, there doesn't seem to be much reason to not consolidate. (I suppose county residents may be reluctant to adopt higher property taxes, but with the economy as it is, if they want roads, parks, and other services to continue, they may not have a choice.) I figure the issue will come up again in the next few years--especially if this recession continues--and the vote will probably be much closer the second time around.

So that's a long way of saying that Jackson-Madison Co. is as likely to consolidate in the coming years as most any other place in the state.

[nashvols]

Originally Posted by strumpeace

I voted 'other'.

Jackson and Madison County flirted with consolidating in the 1980s, but the vote was pretty lopsided against it. The main concern voiced by county residents at the time was that they didn't want the city school system (which had busing and was under a desegregation order) and the county school system to be united. However, in the early 1990s, the school systems consolidated anyway. So with the schools no longer being an issue, there doesn't seem to be much reason to not consolidate. (I suppose county residents may be reluctant to adopt higher property taxes, but with the economy as it is, if they want roads, parks, and other services to continue, they may not have a choice.) I figure the issue will come up again in the next few years--especially if this recession continues--and the vote will probably be much closer the second time around.

So that's a long way of saying that Jackson-Madison Co. is as likely to consolidate in the coming years as most any other place in the state.

I guess I could see Jackson being a decent candidate for consolidation, especially since there are very few other incorporated places within the county (Medon, Three Way, and part of Humboldt).

The thing a lot of people have to remember is that consolidation does not necessarily see their property taxes go way up. If it is anything like Nashville, there would be different rates for the 'old' Jackson city limits and the rest of the county. Essentially, the city government ceases to exist...it's not exactly like the city services suddenly extend to the entire county.

But that's an interesting point with Jackson being a potential contender. Do you think it would work and/or be a good thing for the county in general?

Also, I think Clarksville is a decent candidate, because there are no other cities within Montgomery County. I know they have thought about it in the past...but I'm not sure how seriously.


One thing I wonder about some of the counties (take Shelby, for instance), is that the previously incorporated areas (like Germantown and Bartlett) don't want the main city to have sovereignty over them in their decision making (like a county government would).

[JMT]

Originally Posted by nashvols

One thing I wonder about some of the counties (take Shelby, for instance), is that the previously incorporated areas (like Germantown and Bartlett) don't want the main city to have sovereignty over them in their decision making (like a county government would).

That could never happen. When a city and county "merge" what actually happens is the city gives up its incorporation, and the county takes over. So, for example, when Nashville and Davidson County "merged" it was actually the city of Nashville which dissolved into Davidson County. This is why there are still other incorporated towns within Davidson County that are not part of the metropolitan government, such as Belle Meade, Forest Hills, and Madison; they chose to stay independent rather than hand over their town charters to the county.

So, if Memphis and Shelby County "merge" it's actually the city of Memphis which gives up its charter and ceases to exist, and Shelby County takes over while towns such as Bartlett, Collierville, and Germantown remain independent enclaves within the county.

At any rate, I think another prime candidate for consolidation is Morristown/Hamblen County. It's a tiny county in land area that is totally dominated by the city of Morristown.

[nashvols]

Originally Posted by JMT

That could never happen. When a city and county "merge" what actually happens is the city gives up its incorporation, and the county takes over. So, for example, when Nashville and Davidson County "merged" it was actually the city of Nashville which dissolved into Davidson County. This is why there are still other incorporated towns within Davidson County that are not part of the metropolitan government, such as Belle Meade, Forest Hills, and Madison; they chose to stay independent rather than hand over their town charters to the county.

So, if Memphis and Shelby County "merge" it's actually the city of Memphis which gives up its charter and ceases to exist, and Shelby County takes over while towns such as Bartlett, Collierville, and Germantown remain independent enclaves within the county.

That's not entirely the case. The other entities are represented in the metro government as part of a two-tiered system. They do remain separately incorporated, but they are still part of the city-county budget (they are essentially covered with the basic county services like police and fire...although some of the cities still have their own police force - Belle Meade, Berry Hill, Goodlettsville, and Lakewood - Oak Hill and Forest Hills do not).

I guess 'sovereignty' isn't the right word...but since the city and county government are essentially one, it would appear that Memphis, in that case, would take the place of the decision making authority in the county.

And as far as I know, Nashville has not given up it's city charter. It is still incorporated as a city...but the government serves a dual role of city government and county government.

[LauraC]

Originally Posted by nashvols

This is just an interesting topic to me. I'm not advocating city-county consolidation for any place -- I think it works well for some places, and might not work as well in others.

For those not as familiar, a consolidated government effectively runs the major cities services and government, as well as those for the rest of the county. Police, fire, and schools are usually combined into one district, although some other already incorporated municipalities retain some of their own services or has those that the general county does not offer (like trash pickup).

Can you give an example or two of some consolidated governments that are effective so we can see what you mean by effective?

[Johnny Ryall]

I don't really think any cities are "likely" to merge as most attempts are rejected. With the Memphis & Shelby referendum, it barely passed by a sliver in the city. The county, I believe, was 70-80% against it.

Proponents in Louisville pushed hard and did it, but it has very luke warm reviews and no major savings were identified. In fact, cost of services has increased and I don't think the citizens saw any tax breaks either. I understand the duplication argument, but it is pretty factual that the larger a government body gets, the more inefficient it becomes. I for one am against consolidation. I believe most people like autonomous local representation, even at a municipal level. Although, one major problem Memphis had was business interfacing with 2 governments, but with the arrival of AC Wharton & Mark Lutrell the game has now been changed. Enter the EDGE commitee, a one stop shop for for business/ economic development.

I like AC Wharton, but have a different stance on consolidation. Although, he does realize that it doesn't stop there and he has been implementing needed streamlining between the city & county and also within themselves as well which I think is absolutely the right direction for Big Shelby.

As for school consolidation, I will be voting "NO" next Tuesday. MCS needs to be broken into a "chancellor" type system with sub-districts, much less merge with SCS. Although it could very well pass, unsuspecting Memphians who do not understand what is happening don't realize that the Norris-bill could literally sweep the rug from underneath their feet. Don't expect Martavius Jones or Tomeka Hart to owe up to that fact because it is their fault and they are just now saving face. Also, this is just the beginning of this political movement. I would expect the ban on SSDs & MSDs to be lifted and seeing them pop up all over the state of TN, especially Davidson & Hamilton co.

[nashvols]

Originally Posted by LauraC

Can you give an example or two of some consolidated governments that are effective so we can see what you mean by effective?

I can give you examples of other cities...I can't speak for how effective the government is there, because I don't live there. Government can be efficient or inefficient based on the people who run it.

Indianapolis, Louisville, Lexington, and Jacksonville are among the bigger ones. Not too long ago Athens and Augusta in Georgia changed as well.

Originally Posted by Johnny Ryall

I don't really think any cities are "likely" to merge as most attempts are rejected. With the Memphis & Shelby referendum, it barely passed by a sliver in the city. The county, I believe, was 70-80% against it.

I certainly agree with that. That's why the poll says which cities are most likely to adopt, not which cities will adopt next. The option could be "none" (other).

Originally Posted by Johnny Ryall

Proponents in Louisville pushed hard and did it, but it has very luke warm reviews and no major savings were identified. In fact, cost of services has increased and I don't think the citizens saw any tax breaks either. I understand the duplication argument, but it is pretty factual that the larger a government body gets, the more inefficient it becomes. I for one am against consolidation. I believe most people like autonomous local representation, even at a municipal level. Although, one major problem Memphis had was business interfacing with 2 governments, but with the arrival of AC Wharton & Mark Lutrell the game has now been changed. Enter the EDGE commitee, a one stop shop for for business/ economic development.

I understand the point about larger single governments being inefficient...but when you have 2 large governments, isn't that about the same thing? And as far as Louisville goes...I'm not sure if the plan was sold to them as "you will see the cost of services fall" or anything like that...but Louisville is relatively new to the game...I think there are generally a lot of kinks to work out when you adopt this sort of thing.

Once again, though, I'm not advocating that any of these places should consolidate. I am just curious, from a local perspective, what would and would not work about it. I thank you for your responses.

Originally Posted by Johnny Ryall

I like AC Wharton, but have a different stance on consolidation. Although, he does realize that it doesn't stop there and he has been implementing needed streamlining between the city & county and also within themselves as well which I think is absolutely the right direction for Big Shelby.

Perhaps rather than a "true" metro or consolidated government, a sort of hybrid or dynamic government?

Also, as someone from the Memphis area...do you think any of the other incorporated cities will be expanding their borders? Any new incorporations on the horizon?

Originally Posted by Johnny Ryall

As for school consolidation, I will be voting "NO" next Tuesday. MCS needs to be broken into a "chancellor" type system with sub-districts, much less merge with SCS. Although it could very well pass, unsuspecting Memphians who do not understand what is happening don't realize that the Norris-bill could literally sweep the rug from underneath their feet. Don't expect Martavius Jones or Tomeka Hart to owe up to that fact because it is their fault and they are just now saving face. Also, this is just the beginning of this political movement. I would expect the ban on SSDs & MSDs to be lifted and seeing them pop up all over the state of TN, especially Davidson & Hamilton co.

Tell me more about this...this is the first I've heard of it.

[Johnny Ryall]

Originally Posted by nashvols

I certainly agree with that. That's why the poll says which cities are most likely to adopt, not which cities will adopt next. The option could be "none" (other).

I see what you mean, chose "other".

I understand the point about larger single governments being inefficient...but when you have 2 large governments, isn't that about the same thing?

Perhaps rather than a "true" metro or consolidated government, a sort of hybrid or dynamic government?

Sort of, the new EDGE committee is a good example. The county just needs to streamline better with its' municipalities despite size, but fiercely defend autonomy.

And as far as Louisville goes...I'm not sure if the plan was sold to them as "you will see the cost of services fall" or anything like that...but Louisville is relatively new to the game...I think there are generally a lot of kinks to work out when you adopt this sort of thing.

I could be wrong and I'd be interested to hear it from an informed Louisville poster, but I think that's what a lot of it was based on (future tax increases, etc.). Not to mention, they didn't want to lose the 1st city title to Lexington too. That's what happened with Memphis & Nashville when concerning metros. When Nashville consolidated it jacked up job exchange rates from suburbs in adjacent counties and really tied their region together. I believe their MSA surpassed ours after the 1990 census. (??) Nashville-Davidson will probably surpass Memphis proper in the next decade too, but Big Shelby & the Greater Mid-South urban core (areas of Shelby, Desoto & Crittenden) will continue to reign for some time. Really it's one of the largest urban area's in the southeast, but just diced up & usually not detected by census categorizations & criteria.

Also, as someone from the Memphis area...do you think any of the other incorporated cities will be expanding their borders? Any new incorporations on the horizon?

I believe all incorporated areas have huge annex reserves.

Tell me more about this...this is the first I've heard of it.

School system consolidation has now made its' way to Big Shelby and we're smack dab in the middle of a legal battle about how it will take shape. It's a very different situation from others because you have the largest school system in the state (Memphis City Schools) being absorbed by a smaller county system (Shelby County Schools). MCS surrendered their charter in essence of a hostile takeover which will create the 16th largest school system in the nation. I don't like it one bit and think it is extremely wreckless. The Norris-bill was a piece of legislation that was shotgunned thru the state legislature and gives Shelby County municipalities only, the right to create Special School Districts & Municipal School Districts. If the referendum passes next Tuesday, there will be no MCS after 2-3 years... but now Germantown, etc. can create their own new school systems and the new Shelby County Schools will lose their tax revenues. Really, its' a double-edged sword & a very complicated situation as it stands now. I'll save strong opinions for another time. Although, I would like to thank Gov Haslam for signing the Norris-bill into law in a timely manner to put the brakes on Tomeka Hart's political nonsense. It is obvious she has no idea as to what she is doing putting the future of MCS children in uncertainty while a time of great reforms is at hand.

[nashvols]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ryall

I see, chose "other".

Sort of, the new EDGE committee is a good example. The county just needs to streamline better with its' municipalities despite size, but fiercely defend autonomy.

I think one of the biggest differences between Shelby and Davidson counties is the size of the incorporated cities. When Metro-Nashville consolidated in 1963, the independent cities were tiny and relatively insignificant. They don't take up a lot of land (30 or so square miles).

In Shelby county's case, you have 3 cities (Bartlett, Germantown, Collierville) that all have more population than the combined 6 independent cities in Davidson County. It's a whole different ball game when you are talking about sealing in major suburbs rather than little bedroom communities. The Shelby County cities are more autonomous than the ones in Davidson County ever were.

Originally Posted by Johnny Ryall

I could be wrong and I'd be interested to hear it from an informed Louisville poster, but I think that's what a lot of it was based on (future tax increases, etc.). Not to mention, they didn't want to lose the 1st city title to Lexington too. That's what happened with Memphis & Nashville when concerning metros. When Nashville consolidated it jacked up job exchange rates from suburbs in adjacent counties and really tied their region together. I believe their MSA surpassed ours after the 1990 census. (??) Nashville-Davidson will probably surpass Memphis proper in the next decade too, but Big Shelby & the Greater Mid-South urban core (areas of Shelby, Desoto & Crittenden) will continue to reign for some time. Really it's one of the largest urban area's in the southeast, but just diced up & usually not detected by census categorizations.

I can totally see some cities doing it just for the city ranking. I don't know what the feeling was like in 1963, but I don't think city ranking was among the reasons Nashville decided to do it.

Yes, in 1990, Nashville MSA passed Memphis by just a few thousand. And Nashville passing Memphis in overall city population depends on a number of things...one being whether Memphis annexes any more land, or if the city gains or loses people. The census should give us a more definite number, but Nashville is projected to have gained 60-70,000 over the past decade. I'm not sure if that trend will continue, but signs have been pointing to a slight acceleration.

I'm not sure how long Memphis will hold the UA reign, though. It currently holds a sizable lead, but right now Mufreesboro/LaVergne/Smyrna is considered separate. It should not be when they do their next adjustment. That alone will add 200,000 people to the UA. There are other areas outside of the county that are not part of the core, but will eventually grow into it. I think what you will see is Nashville add "chunks" to its UA, rather than just a steady increase in population.

My guess is that it will pass Memphis in that category sometime around 2020. Perhaps even sooner than Nashville city would pass Memphis city in population.

No doubt, Memphis' core is more dense, though. Nashville is obviously spread out with urban areas emanating from the surrounding cities and following major highways towards the main hub (spokes on a wheel). Of course, I think the main reason for that is that the land in Memphis is more contiguous and suitable to build out in large expanses. There are a lot of hills that make this very difficult in the Nashville area.

Originally Posted by Johnny Ryall

I believe all incorporated areas have huge annex reserves.

What exactly is an annex reserve?

Originally Posted by Johnny Ryall

School system consolidation has now made its' way to Big Shelby and we're smack dab in the middle of a legal battle about how it will take shape. It's a very different situation from others because you have the largest school system in the state (Memphis City Schools) being absorbed by a smaller county system (Shelby County Schools). MCS surrendered their charter in essence of a hostile takeover which will create the 16th largest school system in the nation. I don't like it one bit and think it is extremely wreckless. The Norris-bill was a piece of legislation that was shotgunned thru the state legislature and gives Shelby County municipalities only, the right to create Special School Districts & Municipal School Districts. If the referendum passes next Tuesday, there will be no MCS after 2-3 years... but now Germantown, etc. can create their own new school systems. Really, its' a double-edged sword, but a very complicated situation as it stands now. I'll save strong opinions for another time.

That's very interesting...I'll have to keep an eye out for what happens.