Would you grow evergreen oaks in "Upstate" Tennessee given the chance? (Memphis: 2015, houses)

[Sun Belt-lover L.A.M.]

"Upstate" Tennessee means areas not in nor immediately adjacent to Memphis, which can grow so much more than the rest of the state and has a different feel/culture to it.

Yes, there are evergreen oak species that will grow in Upstate Tennessee, even though Southern Live Oak and Sand Live Oak will only thrive in the immediate Memphis area.

Escarpment Live Oak is native to parts of Oklahoma with very similar winters to ours (Norman and some of the mountains), and there are reports of their long-term success in non-Memphian Tennessee, the Ozarks, non-coastal Virginia and warmer parts of Pennsylvania. They get just as big as Southern Live Oak; the best ways to distinguish them are acorns (which are more fusiform). However, be sure to plant them in a silty, loamy or sandy upland unless you live in the glades, as they won't tolerate highly acidic soil that isn't well-drained; however limestone reduces soil pH as it dissolves, so it shouldn't be a big problem in the glades as long as it's not a wetland nor bottomland.

Sand Laurel Oak and Swamp Laurel Oak, although not as reliably evergreen, are also mainly-evergreen oaks that are hardy enough to thrive in Tennessee. In fact, Swamp Laurel Oak is native to a small patch in southern Middle Tennessee! I've heard that Swamp Laurel Oak also still has leaves on it at least well into December, even in continental Zone 6a Cincinnati!

To top things all off, they're also so lush-looking that they'd be pretty hard to distinguish from a regular oak in the active season. Even in a few weeks of the spring, they go dormant too, although only briefly for an annual leaf replacement, so it may be hard for the naive and/or ignorant to tell a difference in the end of the brown season too. Even the bark of Escarpment Live Oak looks pretty similar to some white oaks, and many people around here already grow the Southern Magnolia that's also big with broad, lush-colored evergreen leaves.

So, at least after reading the above, how would you feel about mostly-evergreen oaks in non-Memphian Tennessee?

[Serious Conversation]

The big problem is that they may last five years, then you get a really cold winter.

[JRR]

I lived with live and laurel oaks most of my life in Florida and very much disliked them. When they are large, they do provide a lot of nice shade.

But they drop a ton of leaves. And they are not leaves that you can easily chop up with a lawnmower and they will disintegrate. They are small thick leaves that come down in piles and will last forever and may smother your grass if you leave them. At my last house in leaf season, I would fill up five trash cans every week and that would go on for at least a month.

And then there were the acorns. One tree was near the driveway and it was a constant battle when they started dropping. You could sweep the driveway clean and as you walk back to the house more are dropping on your head. You always knew when someone was coming to visit as you could hear the crunching as they drove up.

And then there were the blossoms which came down in piles. They also had to be raked up and disposed.

And last, but not least, the yellow pollen that covered everything.

If I ever moved back to Florida, I would not consider any house that had the oak trees anywhere near to it

[Sun Belt-lover L.A.M.]

Originally Posted by Serious Conversation

The big problem is that they may last five years, then you get a really cold winter.

Maybe where you live, but Escarpment Live Oak is no less hardy than Southern Magnolia and Needle Palm (it's implied even a few degrees hardier), and Swamp Laurel Oak is definitely even hardier as it's listed to Zone 5b if not 5a. So maybe in the mountains like Tri-Cities or Crossville, or perhaps Clarksville due to colder winter means, but they should be fine in most of the state given proper soil type and the right planting time. Although I don't grow things listed to 7a even though I'm in 7a, none of what I mentioned fails to meet a 6b listing.

Also, don't forget, unlike fully evergreen things such as Southern Magnolia and Needle Palm, semi-evergreen oaks do an annual leaf replacement in the spring. So damaged leaves in unusual winters are less likely to cause long-term damage than in the other two as long as the roots and stems are mostly intact. Ice storms shouldn't pull too many limbs down either, as being able to grow in Cincinnati for Swamp Laurel Oak is a good sign, and Escarpment Live Oak is actually native to some areas with about as much annual snow as us.

I'm not saying it's not a problem anywhere in the state - just that it's probably only a big problem in the mountains and northern plateau if even there, and subtropical vegetation in general needs to be babied along in those places (save for the hardiest hollies, bamboos and rhododendrons) unlike most of the state.

[Bamaman1]

It's about 500 miles from Memphis to Mountain City, Tennessee, and there is a vast difference in soils, climate and elevation in this state. What grows in Mempho is not necessarily what grows in the Appalachians.

Oak trees are not what you'd call a fast growing tree, and they're therefore not big sellers in nursery stock. What Tennessee has that's good is the state tree, the Tulip Poplar.

One of my houses has a bunch of White Oak trees, with huge limbs. I've been raking, blowing, mulching and hauling off a ton of leaves in the last two weeks leftover from the Fall, 2019. After the leaves are shed, most years we get too much rain to where they cannot be dealt with until Spring and sometimes the Summer.

And I've discovered trees can be a big liability. Another lot I owned had two 8' diameter oak trees. Both were diseased. We sold the property to get rid of the liability of one of those trees. They were so large that a crane and 2 man chainsaw would be required to get rid of them--$4-5K. Another lot I had required two $1,000 removals of oak trees that were entangled in electrical wires.

[Sun Belt-lover L.A.M.]

Originally Posted by Bamaman1

It's about 500 miles from Memphis to Mountain City, Tennessee, and there is a vast difference in soils, climate and elevation in this state. What grows in Mempho is not necessarily what grows in the Appalachians.

True. I specifically said not Memphis, where even the regular coastal evergreen oaks grow. I wasn't really thinking Mountain City either; it's a bit too cold for almost any subtropical vegetation. I was talking about Escarpment Live Oak and Swamp Laurel Oak, which are hardier than Southern Live Oak and will grow outside of Memphis.

"Upstate" could even apply to parts of West Tennessee not in Memphis, as Memphis is culturally different than the rest of the state as well as warmer and closer to sea level. It doesn't have to just be Appalachia.

[southernnaturelover]

Originally Posted by JRR

I lived with live and laurel oaks most of my life in Florida and very much disliked them. When they are large, they do provide a lot of nice shade.

But they drop a ton of leaves. And they are not leaves that you can easily chop up with a lawnmower and they will disintegrate. They are small thick leaves that come down in piles and will last forever and may smother your grass if you leave them. At my last house in leaf season, I would fill up five trash cans every week and that would go on for at least a month.

And then there were the acorns. One tree was near the driveway and it was a constant battle when they started dropping. You could sweep the driveway clean and as you walk back to the house more are dropping on your head. You always knew when someone was coming to visit as you could hear the crunching as they drove up.

And then there were the blossoms which came down in piles. They also had to be raked up and disposed.

And last, but not least, the yellow pollen that covered everything.

If I ever moved back to Florida, I would not consider any house that had the oak trees anywhere near to it

I know how you feel, and you can include Water oak with those as well. If you try to mulch them they just shoot right back out unscathed. It's like trying to mulch magnolia leaves.

I have White oak and Swamp Chestnut oaks as well, and those seem to mulch well. There are so many types of oaks, some are wonderful and some are a total nuisance.

[Sun Belt-lover L.A.M.]

Originally Posted by southernnaturelover

I know how you feel, and you can include Water oak with those as well. If you try to mulch them they just shoot right back out unscathed. It's like trying to mulch magnolia leaves.

I have White oak and Swamp Chestnut oaks as well, and those seem to mulch well. There are so many types of oaks, some are wonderful and some are a total nuisance.

Well, Southern Magnolia can be dealt with by not pruning the lower leaves to begin with. Something I'd probably do anyways, as I like them in their natural form and with extra green leaves. (Same could apply for Needle Palm, but I'd be variable with that depending on mood/location due to the fact that they could look like either a mega-bush if you didn't prune or mini-tree if you did.)

Also, basically any deciduous tree is going to make a huge mess, and I prefer the semi-evergreen oaks (and evergreen stuff in general) due both to my seasonal depression and preference of lush scenery. The only fully deciduous stuff that looks anything better than bleak in winter that I know of are birches, Red Alder and Winterberry, but even that's not nearly as good as something with actual winter leaf retention.

[Bamaman1]

In answer to your question, "how would you feel about mostly-evergreen oaks in non-Memphian Tennessee?"

These are trees commonly found on the Gulf Coast and in the rest of Florida. In 18 years of being a Memphis resident, I don't ever recall either breed of those oak trees to be present.

But if you did run into one in Memphis, enjoy it.

[Sun Belt-lover L.A.M.]

Originally Posted by Bamaman1

In answer to your question, "how would you feel about mostly-evergreen oaks in non-Memphian Tennessee?"

These are trees commonly found on the Gulf Coast and in the rest of Florida. In 18 years of being a Memphis resident, I don't ever recall either breed of those oak trees to be present.

But if you did run into one in Memphis, enjoy it.

There are Southern Live Oaks growing on public property in several parts of Memphis, the biggest being these at the Cossitt Library. They're just not common yet for some reason.

https://subtropicalmemphis.wordpress.com/2015/04/23/16/

I find it likely that more people would plant Southern Live Oaks than hardy evergreen oaks in Memphis, though. Southern Live Oak is more popular where it can grow, more adaptable to different soil types and probably easier to come by. I was just asking whether anyone in another part of the state, if they had the opportunity to grow one of the two hardier evergreen oak species, would.

Also, don't forget, Escarpment Live Oak is so similar in appearance that it could be hard to tell the difference unless you're experienced, up close and looking for the right cue(s) - except if it's growing somewhere that can't support Southern Live Oak, which is most of Tennessee besides Memphis.