Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I think some folks are reading into certain comments about Houston too much. Houston is a dirty city as in messy, haphazardly developed, more noticeable grit, etc.. And it's not just white folks that make that observation. I don't think "dirty" is meant anything other than referring to the aesthetics. There's parts of Houston that are very nice, but it seems like those areas aren't too far from areas that aren't very nice. It's just a place that has a different vibe than Dallas. Personally, it's not my vibe, but that doesn't mean I don't like Houston. As for racial... aren't both areas similar in a lot of demographic measurements? Houston's diversity has just been around a bit longer.
Yeah equating Houston's dirty reputation to race is a huge stretch. And I definitely believe some of the criticism against Houston by non Houstonians has some racial undertones to them but the dirty rep is a real thing. I'm Black and I think there's a lot of in your face ugly tacky dingy parts of Houston. It's not the entire metro but Houston doesn't do a good job in hiding it's unattractive areas like other cities in America. Not to mention, I've heard plenty of Black people throughout my life talk about how dirty Houston looks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atadytic19
DFW has become a lot more diverse the last decade or 2 but as I mentioned before, calling Houston dirty isn't new. That's why I mentioned that posters using it today might not even know they are promoting racial tropes. Things Clansmen in FW used to say.
The FW side especially was largely white just 15 years ago. Houston wasn't the only big majority minority cityin Texas. San Antonio and El Paso had Houston beat. The difference was Houston's large black population somehow stained or dirtied the population.
Houston is no where near haphazard as European cities. And Houston isn't what I would call gritty. New York, Philadelphia, New Orleans is gritty.
But haphazard, disorganized or whatever term you want to use for lack of zoning isn't synonyms for dirty. I don't know what sort of mental gymnastics you do to make that link.
Dallas has long had an inferiority complex due to Houston’s size. Yall are thinking the dirty claim are part of the rivalry, but it goes way past that. The dirty claims are a racial trope and you know it. If you want to say it is disorganized say that.
A city isn't major if it is not gritty. Suburbs are nice and tidy. I know that DFW is one giant burb so yall might not be familiar with what a city looks like, but go to Europe and you will see how roads and styles just change on a dime. You will see trash just piled up on the streets. Those streets will reek of Urine. THAT!! Is dirty. That is gritty. Houston, for a big city is middle of the road. If you are not as gritty as Houston you are more in the suburb category
Let me get this out the way before I give my piece on the dirty Houston comment, but I truly believe that Houston within 610 is my favorite area in all of Texas.
Now that I got that out the way, let me tell you why people generally label the city/metro dirty. First impressions are everything right? When you're coming from Dallas you're more then likely driving on 45. From Conroe to Spring, the Greater Houston area can look solid, nice, or just plain bland. Bland due to the endless sprawl of strip malls filled with national chains everybody's familiar with. Nothing really stands out except maybe when you see The Woodlands skyline off to your right. But when you start driving past Spring into Greenspoint and close to downtown, Houston isn't the most attractive city at all. And even coming from 59/69 it's definitely not attractive.
The freeways cut through a lot of blight mixed in with billboards and a mix of seedy businesses, industrial blue collar looking businesses, national chains, visible litter, trash on the freeway. I mean that's what people see of Houston from the freeways coming in from the North or from the airport. Don't get me wrong Dallas isn't the prettiest metro either. But what I generally see of Dallas from the freeways is more blandness than outright ugly. I actually think there's a nice stretch of urban scenery on Hwy 75 in Dallas. Don't get me wrong there's bland strip malls and what not on both sides of that stretch but they definitely added some touches to stretches of 75 to make the drive more pleasant to look at.
IMO, you don't really start seeing attractive parts of Houston till you reach downtown and that's pretty much coming from all freeways leading into downtown. There's a really nice view of Houston's multiple skylines driving on 59 N exit from 610 that captures Houston density but those views are far few and between when you're on the freeway. Even 59 going through Greenway/ Upper Kirby/ Museum district and leading into Downtown needs some major maintenance.
The average visitor won't make the effort to get off the freeways and see actual attractive scenery in Houston. Like most visitors might not drive on Memorial drive. in between I-10 and 45 to experience really nice views of the city.
Houston has some dare I say it, beautiful looking neighborhoods. Some of my favorite looking neighborhoods are in Houston. Boulevard Oaks, Montrose and Third Ward are probably my favorite neighborhoods in the state. The Heights imo has the best collection of homes in the state outside of Galveston.
So Houston has plenty of attractive areas. The problem is it's not only the freeways but a large percentage of Houston outside the loop(and even some areas in the loop) are very ugly looking. IMO, some of the worst looking neighborhoods out of all the major cities. That's the haphazard development that people are alluding to. Hwy 6, 249, FM 1960 are eye sores. Southwest, Alief, Greenspoint, Aldine,etc. straight eyesores.
Yes DFW has eyesores too. Definitely a lot of bland suburbs. But DFW has less of those eyesores and not in abundance like Greater Houston. Not to mention the amount of litter, ditches filled with litter, incompetent infrastructure and yeah you can see why Houston gets the reputation it does and why it can be unappealing to some visitors.
Now when I hear some non Houstonians talk about how much more dangerous Houston is than Dallas and other parts of the state, I do believe there's some racial undertones to those criticism. Some people feel a certain way about Houston because it's common to see so many POC in popular areas of the city. That's not to say Dallas popular areas are overwhelmingly White. Dallas has actually gotten more diverse over the years to the point where I don't think it's even a problem of representation at this point. Hell, I think at this point I see more POC than I do White people in neighborhoods like Deep Ellum, Bishop Arts District and Oak Lawn. It definitely felt that way the last time I was there months ago. Even places like the Legacy district and The Star have diverse crowds all the time. Is it quite like Houston? No, but I think at this point it's integrated enough. It's not Austin or any place like that. As a Black man I'm not uncomfortable when I'm in those areas.
As far as Dallas Klan image, I don't understand why some Houstonians throw that stigma at DFW as if Houston has a lack of racist and racist history to their name. Houston hasn't always been a city that celebrates it's diversity. Hell for a city that has as much diversity as it does, it's still has some conservative libertarian attitudes I just can't rock with. The amount of right wing racist propaganda I see on the back of peoples pick up trucks, suv's and cars even in the urban core of Houston is ridiculous. I expect to see those things in the suburbs. And yes I know DFW area is definitely more attractive for that demographic especially in the Northern burbs of both principal cities.
Of course if your only looking at the poorer areas it's not going to be attractive. Dallas has the same EXACT issue.
Cedar Crest, Pleasant Grove, South Dallas Most areas south of the 30. Have you never been to these areas? They make up half the city of Dallas. Have you been to these areas? Dallas coming from I-45, 175, 35 south it's the same as Houstons less desirable areas. Even the 183 is starting to get gritty. Houston is gentrifying those areas faster than Dallas is. Acres
Homes has all kinds of new development right now. The whole Buffalo Bayou corridor has been beautified and new development is sprouting like crazy. Same with 5th ward. 2nd and 3rd wards.
Obviously the entire City can't be perfect but it sure has come a very long way.
Dallas is not more upscale than Houston. That is a dispelled myth made up by the Dallas propaganda machine. The numbers don't back that up.
And Yes if you go ask the folks with a very strong "KING OF THE HILL" accent. Ahahahaha. Yes those folks. Especially the boomhauer dudes up in Dallas. Ask them why they don't like Houston. They'll point to the skin on their forearm. What do you tink they mean by that?????
Of course if your only looking at the poorer areas it's not going to be attractive. Dallas has the same EXACT issue.
Cedar Crest, Pleasant Grove, South Dallas Most areas south of the 30. Have you never been to these areas? They make up half the city of Dallas. Have you been to these areas? Dallas coming from I-45, 175, 35 south it's the same as Houstons less desirable areas. Even the 183 is starting to get gritty. Houston is gentrifying those areas faster than Dallas is. Acres
Homes has all kinds of new development right now. The whole Buffalo Bayou corridor has been beautified and new development is sprouting like crazy. Same with 5th ward. 2nd and 3rd wards.
Obviously the entire City can't be perfect but it sure has come a very long way.
Dallas is not more upscale than Houston. That is a dispelled myth made up by the Dallas propaganda machine. The numbers don't back that up.
And Yes if you go ask the folks with a very strong "KING OF THE HILL" accent. Ahahahaha. Yes those folks. Especially the boomhauer dudes up in Dallas. Ask them why they don't like Houston. They'll point to the skin on their forearm. What do you tink they mean by that?????
Even our supposedly bad areas look better ithan Houston's bad areas.
None of the areas you named in Dallas actually have an unwelcoming look. Bear Street in South Dallas used to be the worst area in Dallas and now it looks better than some areas of Plano.
I think you just went and named the areas that have a history of being bad looking. You really haven't been up here in a while.
Hunters Creek Village(In Houston) is the richest city in Texas with a mean household income of $477,852 and a median sale price of homes of $2,611,269. It's a very wealthy suburb of Houston.
I guess it depends on how you slice it up. Some studies say Southlake but others Hunters Creek still other's Highland Park. This one is based on Household income. Anyway, The Villages and The Park Cities seem to be pretty even. But you don't hear about The Villages a lot like you do The Park Cities. That's because H-Town isn't worried about advertising itself as much.
How often do you here propaganda coming from Greenwich, CT. Or The Hamptons or Brentwood or Palisades or Medina etc.
They don't go around bragging about how upscale they are and what fabulous shopping they have. In fact they would probably rather remain private and unknown.
I know Southlake and Westlake but Houston also has West U, Bellaire and River Oaks.
One of the claims of Dallas is that it is more Upscale and Urbane, ritzy and Glamorous than Houston. But the numbers don't show any big difference. Houston has more millionaires than Dallas and Houston has plenty of very high income areas.
Dallas sure does spread more propaganda and tries harder to have an upscale image but objectively that may not hold much water.
It may have been 5 years since I looked at all those areas. I used to help folks Puck up rentals off of HUBZU from 2012 til 2018. At that time I'd try to get them something around 30-50k I even got one in Hamilton Park for 28k. SouthvDallas around Hatcher, Cedar Crest. Jay Street, Areas off Corinth 25k by the rail station. Scotland st down by the VA. Stuff off of Ledbetter, Bonnie View, Illinois. Then of course Plrasant Grove and South Dallas. This area is larger than all of North Dallas. I know it and the people very well. But I also sold in Frisco, Plano, Richardson, Lewisville, Carrollton, forest hill and Fort worth. STOP 6. Areas in Fort worth around joe pool. Fair Park, Butner etc. Pretty much I worked renting properties all over the hood. The same in Houston. I dealt with tenants and some rough properties.. I had to clean up after these tenants leave. Being that I looked at properties all day I got to know the areas pretty good a lot of illegal dumping, Crack houses, murders ir the tenants, Police raids, I has to guard the AC units they would steal them right out if the window. Copper thieves. South 2nd ave. Bonnie View. I would ho eat at Aunt Annie's Kitchen. And get Jerk Chicken
Superiority Complex has to be a factor. While not a senseless way of thinking or perceiving, Dallas vs Houston is an ongoing rivalry which will continue on to the 2020-2060s decades. Let's go champs!
Superiority Complex has to be a factor. While not a senseless way of thinking or perceiving, Dallas vs Houston is an ongoing rivalry which will continue on to the 2020-2060s decades. Let's go champs!
Why though?
Other states with similar sized cities don't have as much online beef. Ohio, Florida, Louisiana...
I mean, Baton Rouge has reason for calling its big sister dirty, but I don't see that being done.
I see things like Cincinnati is more polished than Cleveland but I don't see them calling Cleveland dirty.
Why does Dallas folks seem to post such negative things?
This is Texas and attitudes are BIG. That's the Texas way
Other states with similar sized cities don't have as much online beef. Ohio, Florida, Louisiana...
I mean, Baton Rouge has reason for calling its big sister dirty, but I don't see that being done.
I see things like Cincinnati is more polished than Cleveland but I don't see them calling Cleveland dirty.
Why does Dallas folks seem to post such negative things?[/quote]
I'm not saying there is no effort, I said it takes more effort to get things done because zoning adds additional hoops you have to jump through.
I don't think dense walkable areas are a big selling point to Texans as it is on City-Data, but people do like a variety of housing styles. Both Houston and Dallas offer those, but the only difference is that Dallas restricts them to neat packaged areas while Houston throws them up wherever and whenever the market demands.
There is a reason Houston throws up more residential towers. They are not limited to certain areas. Sure the first few looks odd for a while, but once they start getting company a new skyline develops.
Uptown Houston is still called the Galleria area because before it was Uptown, the Mall and the accompanying Williams Tower anchored the area. The tower still sticks out like a sore thumb, but the many towers that has since been built near it makes it look more like that area was planned as a business district.
That 5 mile stretch between downtown and Uptown Houston is developing much the same way. The pioneer towers seemed haphazardly strewn between the two. But they area is filling in nicely.
Lots of new Multifamily has gone up in along the Washington corridor to Rice Military
But cohesiveness isn't always a good thing. Montrose has almost lost all of its character. It has sort of blended into Midtown and Upper Kirby and is starting to look like all the same.
But, the point is those areas are rapidly connecting and those neighborhoods are a lot more plentiful in Houston. CityData lists Uptown Dallas as having 30k people and 8.7k people per square mile and Montrose as also having 30k people and 9k people per square mile. So Montrose is already a little more dense than Uptown Dallas and once all those towers planned fir that area are complete, the density will outpace it even more.
Midtown Houston is only a 3rd of the land area of Uptown Dallas, but already has half the population and it has so much empty space to build on.
Yeah, Houston lacks zoning. But I see it as a plus for the city. It responds to market demands quicker
Dallas is in the process of trying to revitalize former streetcar nodes and older historical commercial areas. I may sound like a broken record. It's like the decline helped to preserve them and now they're being used as a catalyst for continued urban node growth. Here are 3 historical nodes in the West Oak Cliff Area Plan that are highlighted for revitalization. North Cliff, Downtown Elmwood (which was featured in the movie "Born on the Fourth of July" with Tom Cruise), and Hampton/Clarendon. This was one of the things planning will help do, if done properly. Here are a few of the historical streetcar nodes/commercial areas on video (the guy in the video is the councilmember for that portion of Oak Cliff). Downtown Elmwood does not have a video, but here's the geographic location in this article. What I also like is the city banning auto related businesses and drive thru restaurants along Davis St, Jefferson Blvd, Bishop Ave, Hampton Rd, Clarendon Dr, etc when those areas were rezoned. The existing auto oriented businesses are grandfathered in. I am not sure if Houston could do something like that. Lack of zoning does make it easier for development to happen in Houston though, but it's often less focused in certain to make it one cohesive district.
North Cliff conservation district (historic streetcar node)
You may look at those older areas and say ehh, but this was Bishop Arts in the 80s in its declined state.
Now (screenshot)
I love skyscrapers, but they aren't needed to create vibrant walkable areas. When the Jefferson Blvd area was being rezoned in 2014, they did a lot to add density but also respected the existing neighborhood and character. Medium intensity density is allowed where they are planning to build an apartment building on Bishop Ave and Sunset Ave (behind that grey apt building pictured below) and there’s a residential proximity slope height of 200 ft on Jefferson itself. The high intensity density is around the Oak Cliff Bank Tower (Bank of America) and the surface lots and drive thru banks adjacent to 12th/Zang/Beckley/35E. The height is capped at 270 ft in that area. So, you will never see giant skyscrapers there, which I like.
Jefferson Blvd
The white, grey, and beige midride apartments in the back is Bishop Arts and the space in-between are future planned development sites. The tower on Jefferson is the 1920s Jefferson Tower that was restored a few years ago and of course and the beautiful Dallas skyline in the distance
Lastly, you are right about most Texans prolly not caring about walkable areas but people who want to live in the city typically do. Millennials are the driving force behind that change.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Dallas is just as dirty
