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Upper Greenville (not Lower Greenville which is the historic walkable section) from Mockingbird Ln to Royal Ln is another commercial corridor that's slept on this forum. It has multiple DART Rail stations a long and near it with tons of retail, office space, hotels, grocery stores - Kroger, Tom Thumb, Central Market, Costco, Whole Foods, etc. It's also right next to the largest apartment community in Dallas - The Village. I wouldn't call the area particularly urban in form, but it does have urban developments like the Shops at Park Lane and Mockingbird Station. I think overtime it will become more urban and the existing rail will help with that. The Hill shopping center next to Walnut Hill Station just recently got approval to add residential units. Also, Mockingbird Station will be connected to The Loop trail. The current existing trail and pedestrian bridge is already popular for those that live in the area. It's just another option for people to get around. There's also a plan to add additional residential towers at Mockingbird Station as well.
What is that area in and around Hill Shopping Center called? Do you think both it and Mockingbird Station could join Preston Center in becoming Edge Cities? There is already enough retail in the area around The Shops at Park Lane for that area to develop into one.
When you have to find streets, intersections and spots, you are already out of the game.
You are comparing one corridor here and one there.
I'm talking about the entire area within the highway 6 loop, and in some cases beyond.
The difference in energy is just going to increase as more of Houston transitions.
Even long neglected areas, such as that area between East Downtown and Pearland is changing. Large swarths of Cullen, Scott, MLK were left depressed or undeveloped. Now I see street improvements to all 3.
MLK didn't go all the way to the Beltway and Scott had large stretches that were not connected.
Cullen has gone from being lined with ditches and cow fields to fully paved, sidewalks added and cowfields turned into apartments.
Scott was connected all the way through, and former fields have been turned into business parks.
The fractured portions of MLK have now been linked and developed is coming from the Beltway northwards.
If the gap between Pearland and Houston fills in like the gap between Katy and Houston fills in then that's going to add another layer of energy to the city as it will reduce the polarization of population to the west.
When you see areas that have been sketchy for decades like Sunnyside tearing down sfh and building 6-8 housing units in lots that previously held one, or areas like South Acres turning cow fields into Apartment units and Amazon distribution centers, it is a welcomed sign that new life is being breathed into those areas.
I'm not sure what's going with the Hobby area, but there's huge huge potential there. Large plots of land just totally empty. Houston can easily develop an Irving sized development in that area and easily add 300-400k people in that area. Really don't understand how all that land, right next to an international airport and less than 10 miles from downtown can remain empty for so long. That airport will be 100 years old in less than 5 years
What is that area in and around Hill Shopping Center called? Do you think both it and Mockingbird Station could join Preston Center in becoming Edge Cities? There is already enough retail in the area around The Shops at Park Lane for that area to develop into one.
Haha I've always called it North Dallas . But I am sure there's a neighborhood name that it goes by too. Just across Central Expressway is Preston Hollow Village, another newer upscale mixed use development (not fully built out yet) similar to the Shops at Park Lane. It's a nice posh walkable urban node with urban retail and different housing types. They've already built over 1 million sq ft of residential space there and the new gated community within the development seems to have been completed as well. Since it is midrise apartments, its kinda hard to tell that much has been built. Preston Hollow residents probably had a lot to do with it being short. People living there will never need to drive outside of it unless they want to. It's anchored by a Trader Joe's too. An office and residential buildings are suppose to come later on the vacant lot facing Central.
Yes, I do think Mockingbird Station, The Hill shopping center, and the Shops at Park Lane will turn into an edge cities. They have the advantage of being next to light rail to make it more possible. Preston Center became one without it because of how how wealthy and posh the area is. It's the most ideal location for office space and retail.
I've been critical about DART in the past (because I want it to be better), but I never thought the stations that were built here were useless. Since this is a commercial corridor, I think having stations here and focusing urban development around it always made sense. I think the part that people found to be disappointing was the rate in which change would happen. But even with the delay with urban development, what's happening now looks very promising. The Village also slowly plans to redevelop their property with modern urban style apartments over time, finally getting rid of those older garden style apartments.
Preston Hollow Village on Google streetview (I am sure you know what this is. This is mainly for people who don't)
DART's bus system isn't going to work until Dallas gets rid of single purpose zoning and reduce its minimum lot size.
Immediately outside of a 1 mile radius around the downtown/Uptown area is just seas of areas zoned for single family homes.
I lived between West Park and Richmond in Houston a about 20 years ago. If I wanted any thing, almost any hour all I had to do was take a 5 minute walk to Richmond and get in a bus and the world is at my fingertips.
In Dallas, sure you can get on a bus, but where are you going to go to? There is just single family homes lining the streets. That's why DART doesn't work. You can go from Pokey to Ray Ray's house easily, but you don't have dozens of restaurants, grocery stores, banks, gas stations, adult book stores, churches , laundromat, dry cleaners, etc just lining the street.
I maintain that the average Houston resident is minutes from amenities in the bus, while the average resident in Dallas is not.
Running back to Bishop Arts and Knox- Henderson all the time is cute, but how much of DFW lives in and around those areas?
I disagree.
DFW is not the City of Dallas, so there's no need for those areas to appeal to the entire region. They are urban neighborhoods, not strictly commercial districts. So, people who live in those areas enjoy those amenities. People who want to come and patronize those businesses can too. Not everyone wants to live in a neighborhood like that though.
No offense, but the City of Dallas prides itself on not being Houston lol. We like zoning here. Having streets all over Dallas that look like that wouldn't work. I am not saying we don't have it, but they are in established areas and was developed in the 50s/60s. New ones like it aren't being built that I know of. All I gotta say is Westheimer Road past The Galleria area and you'd hear Dallasites collectively say ehhh. LMAO We don't want that here.
One thing I dislike about streets lined with suburban big box retail, they end up being (usually) really ugly as those stores age and eventually move to newer locations. Garland Rd (between Peavy Rd and Jupiter Rd) is a prime example of this and Buckner Blvd/Great Trinity Forest Way (Loop 12) in Pleasant Grove/SE Dallas (between Hillburn Dr and Sycene Rd). Garland Rd has the potential to improve due to its location and ongoing redevelopment. It maybe a little harder for that portion of Loop 12 in Pleasant Grove/SE Dallas. But the city wants to upgrade those corridors in their new comprehensive land use plan.
When I say the Uptown area I mean Uptown and a few miles around it, which captures just about all those areas you mentioned.
In relation to the metro it is a very small portion. Probably 100k max.
I don't think yall realize how small Those areas are
Ummm...I know enough about Dallas to know that Uptown, Deep Ellum, Bishop Arts, Lower Greenville, etc. are completely separate areas. By using "Uptown" as a name for all of them, you're indicating yourself to be not very well-informed about the city.
Sure, they are a small part of the overall city / metro. That's part of why I say Houston's city vibrancy covers a larger area than Dallas'. But there's no question that Dallas has a greater selection of legacy walkable areas, even if they are fairly geographically concentrated.
Dallas doesn't have a true counterpart to the vibrancy of Houston's Bellaire / Asiatown corridor, or even outer Westheimer in all of its ethnically diverse randomness - but you can't claim that either of those corridors is remotely pedestrian-friendly (despite some sidewalk improvements in parts).
Whatever. Uptown, or Uptown area, it is still a tiny portion of the metro as a whole .
Point still stands. Not everyone lives in or around that area and the general Houston poster lives closer to retail. That's just facts no matter how you spin it.
If you read my post fully before trying to earn bonus points with the Dallas posters you will see that I'm referring to the comment Dallaz said about people don't have to live in areas with retail to get to retail. That means DRIVING a only a small fraction of people in either city use transit. And then I specifically said that if you are getting in a car, which 95 % of each metropolitan folks do, then Houston will definitely be a closer trip in that car. Those are just facts.
You can use this tool to see how you capture all of Dallas walkable areas in a 3km radius centered around Uptown: https://www.tomforth.co.uk/circlepopulations/
The reason I keep going back to Uptown instead of Downtown is because the only spot in Dallas you get over 100k people in that 3km radius is if you center the radius around Uptown. You don't come close centering it on downtown
3km radiuses around select areas in both cities:
Downtown Dallas: 57,234
Downtown Houston: 83,217
Uptown Dallas: 100,501
Bishop Arts: 62,991
University Park Dallas: 64,678
Deep Ellum: 67,340
Montrose: 97,734
Houston Heights: 88,214
West U: 87,191
Bellaire: 101,104
Hillcroft Park & Ride: 144,273
Uptown Houston: 114,010
Sharpton area: 130,875
Westheimer & Fondren: 105,171
Royal Oaks Country club: 105,358
Highway 6 and Beechnut: 94,109
Blalock& Hammerly/ kempwood: 88,639
I wouldn't call most of those places walkable, but you can definitely get around all those places by bus and all those places are higher in retail than areas in Dallas because the higher concentration of people is enough to sustain retail
Last edited by atadytic19; 08-25-2023 at 02:01 PM..
Downtown Dallas would be a lot nicer if they hadn't moved all the new stuff to the other side of the freeway in Oaklawn. I say Uptown has killed Downtown.
I was in downtown Dallas today until about an hour ago.....it's not dead.
Ummm...I know enough about Dallas to know that Uptown, Deep Ellum, Bishop Arts, Lower Greenville, etc. are completely separate areas. By using "Uptown" as a name for all of them, you're indicating yourself to be not very well-informed about the city.
Sure, they are a small part of the overall city / metro. That's part of why I say Houston's city vibrancy covers a larger area than Dallas'. But there's no question that Dallas has a greater selection of legacy walkable areas, even if they are fairly geographically concentrated.
Dallas doesn't have a true counterpart to the vibrancy of Houston's Bellaire / Asiatown corridor, or even outer Westheimer in all of its ethnically diverse randomness - but you can't claim that either of those corridors is remotely pedestrian-friendly (despite some sidewalk improvements in parts).
Dallas has something that Houston doesn't. This would be a burgeoning financial district that is developing around The Crescent / Harwood developments. The boundaries of this area which have wrongly been designated a part of Uptown are the Crown shaped neighborhood afronting the north side of Klyde Warren Park. It's street boundaries are N. Field Street to the west, Moody Street to the north, and North Pearl Street to the east. This financial district will also take in Maple Avenue between The Crescent and Trammel Crow's Old Parkland Development. It will also include Cedar Springs road between The Crescent and Turtle Creek. Finally, it will also take in the area along McKinney Avenue between The Crescent and The Gables Development.
You can't have it both ways baby boy.
Either we are taking about living in a walkable area or driving to a walkable area.
Dallas has better highways but anytime you are talking about driving to amenities I can guarantee you the average Houstonian is closer to them.
What I am saying is that the retail in those urban neighborhoods are typically only unique to that area. These are boutiques and neighborhood restaurants, not big box stores and chain restaurants. So, if you want to experience what those neighborhoods have to offer and you live well outside of it, you will have to drive to it.
I mean, y’all are bringing up these suburban style commercial corridors. So, I am comparing areas that are like it in Dallas. The areas mentioned in Houston are not comparable to the urban neighborhoods in Dallas that were already mentioned. No one, unless they have to is walking to areas designed like those places because we have areas in Dallas just like it. Areas where we do have actual urban walkable retail, you see it in the level of foot traffic. People in Lower Greenville actually walk to Trader Joe's, Sam's Club, Sprouts, and that's not including the other retail and restaurants. That's why they've been tearing down the original housing stock (the part that's not historic) and throwing up dense multifamily around that urban node like crazy. This isn't just unique to Lower Greenville either, grocery stores already exist or are planned to be added to existing urban neighborhoods to make them a more complete urban neighborhood. Bishop Arts has a planned Central Market, but there's already two grocery stores in the Jefferson Blvd urban node 4 blocks away. I don't think that Central Market store is gonna get built until the area revitalizes even more.
I am not going to post the same video of Lower Greenville, but you can see people walking in this Google Streetview
It's just a difference in the way Dallas is trying to develop itself. Even the new Lake Highlands Town Center is more urban in form, even though the surrounding area is a more established suburban style neighborhood. It's right next to the Lake Highlands DART Station. The likelihood of changing a nice existing single family neighborhoods in Dallas is very slim. So, the city's approach is walkable urban nodes or walkable villages within close proximity to existing neighborhoods. That's what a lot of the infill originally planned at these DART stations is suppose to be. Like Preston Hollow Village, it has a grocery store with retail/restaurants, apartments, and single family townhomes.
This is what I prefer - Lake Highlands Town Center - starting at 4:10 (I know SanJac just loves my video posts )
But seriously this is just to show the expansion across the street that's not updated on Google streetview.
BTW, I didn't even mention Cedar Springs Rd in Oak Lawn. It has a Kroger store with a nice string of walkable bars/restaurants. They have residential towers planned on the parking lots behind the retail buildings here. Also, this is another walkable urban main street that was saved and is now a designated Texas landmark because of its significance in the LGBTQIA+ community. Seeing retail buildings up to the sidewalk is not uncommon in urban neighborhoods in Dallas.
Throckmorton St and Cedar Spring Road in Oak Lawn (The Gayborhood)
RedBird Mall is also being transformed into a urban development. Apartments have been built, a new Tom Thumb and hotel is coming, and the former anchor stores have been converted into medical facilities. They end up reducing parking around 230 spaces. It's not a lot but it is a step in the right direction.
Stuff like this adds to the energy and vibrancy
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. But I am sure there's a neighborhood name that it goes by too. Just across Central Expressway is Preston Hollow Village, another newer upscale mixed use development (not fully built out yet) similar to the Shops at Park Lane. It's a nice posh walkable urban node with urban retail and different housing types. They've already built over 1 million sq ft of residential space there and the new gated community within the development seems to have been completed as well. Since it is midrise apartments, its kinda hard to tell that much has been built. Preston Hollow residents probably had a lot to do with it being short. People living there will never need to drive outside of it unless they want to. It's anchored by a Trader Joe's too. An office and residential buildings are suppose to come later on the vacant lot facing Central.
We don't want that here.
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