Texas State BOE - Shrewd (not)- Religion as Science (Howe: home, buying)

[love roses]

Originally Posted by mlassoff

I hope so, but I fear not. It seems reactionaries elect people who are only more ridiculous and moralizing who see government as a way to force their morals on others.

That's not specific to conservatives or Christians and I'd like to point that out.

[blakesq]

Is it ridiculous and moralizing to force me to pay for health insurance for those who who currently do not have it?

Originally Posted by mlassoff

I hope so, but I fear not. It seems reactionaries elect people who are only more ridiculous and moralizing who see government as a way to force their morals on others.

[mlassoff]

Really, so the right to adaquate health care equates to teaching the Christian bible in public schools in your mind? In other countries people do pay for the healthcare of others-- They believe in a common good. Healthcare isn't something you should have to earn. It is something that should be a right of a citizen-- Part of the deal like freedom, law enforcement protection and fire protection.

And yes, this moralizing is ALMOST exclusively the domain of the Christian right. They want me to live by THEIR moral values-- even if their leadership hypocrtically does not.

Ridiculous attacks against Al Gore, and pretending this issue goes both ways, when all evidence is to the contrary, does not lead to a solution where kids can be taught SCIENCE in science class and religion in their church or synagogue. Evolution is backed by scientific evidence. Creationism is theology and has no place in a science class room.

[love roses]

It's NOT exclusively the domain of the Christian Right because by "you" taking away all Christian expression of ANY sort out of ALL venues then in effect you are forcing me to live by your "moral" values. And I'm not only talking about teaching religion in schools. I don't care if religious views aren't taught in school, and in addition that means ANY religions views and also any liberal views such as gay tolerance, alternative families, abortion, birth control (o.k, maybe only this). I'm beginning to think that I am falling in line with the "only teach reading, writing and arithmatic" crowd because any of the other things can be taught by parents at home if they so wish.

I also think Muslims should not be allowed to do their prayers in school. I've heard that there are some schools who make this allowance for them and I think that's pitiful especially if the same concession is not made for Christian or Jewish or Hindu students.

[blakesq]

Just wanted to make sure I understood you. So, when liberals force me to adopt their morals through government force, thats OK, not ridiculous, and not moralizing. Thanks for the clarification.

Originally Posted by mlassoff

Really, so the right to adaquate health care equates to teaching the Christian bible in public schools in your mind? In other countries people do pay for the healthcare of others-- They believe in a common good. Healthcare isn't something you should have to earn. It is something that should be a right of a citizen-- Part of the deal like freedom, law enforcement protection and fire protection.

And yes, this moralizing is ALMOST exclusively the domain of the Christian right. They want me to live by THEIR moral values-- even if their leadership hypocrtically does not.

Ridiculous attacks against Al Gore, and pretending this issue goes both ways, when all evidence is to the contrary, does not lead to a solution where kids can be taught SCIENCE in science class and religion in their church or synagogue. Evolution is backed by scientific evidence. Creationism is theology and has no place in a science class room.

[TexasHorseLady]

Originally Posted by love roses

That's not specific to conservatives or Christians and I'd like to point that out.

Reps to you for this. There are definitely those on the other side of the fence who "elect people who are only more ridiculous and moralizing who see government as a way to force their morals on others".

The desire to force your particular view of the world on everyone else knows no specific politics or religion, though all sides deny that they are doing exactly the same thing that they're accusing the other side of doing, when it comes to this.

Leading those of us who can see both sides and can see that it's six of one/half dozen of the other as far as this is concerned, to beat our heads against a wall. This is one reason I'm a member of the "A Pox on Both Your Houses" party; both parties do this WAY too much for my taste, and I think both parties have forgotten what this country is supposed to be about.

[mlassoff]

Originally Posted by love roses

It's NOT exclusively the domain of the Christian Right because by "you" taking away all Christian expression of ANY sort out of ALL venues

No. You can have all the Christian expression you want in your home, in a private organization you belong to or virtually anything MY tax dollars don't support. If the private owners of a shopping mall want to decorate with crosses and busts of Jesus, that's their business. However a public school, supported by my tax dollars is a different story.

I don't expect your tax dollars to support my Judaism. Why should mine support your religious expressions? Again, I am afraid this all looks much different when you're not in the Christian majority, a perspective that I imagine is very hard for someone to imagine.

Originally Posted by love roses

And I'm not only talking about teaching religion in schools. I don't care if religious views aren't taught in school, and in addition that means ANY religions views and also any liberal views such as gay tolerance, alternative families, abortion, birth control

Liberal is not a religion. Some would say gay tolerance is a human rights issue not one of religion. There is a difference between being tolerant and condoning. The schools should be safe and comfortable for all-- gay, Christian, straight, Jewish, Muslim, whatever. That means teaching tolerance. I believe most religions teach this in the form of "Love your fellow Man," and "Judge not lest yee be judged and cast the first stone." I don't know how this turned in to you have to accept EVERYTHING about a person to treat them with respect and tolerance.

Originally Posted by love roses

I'm beginning to think that I am falling in line with the "only teach reading, writing and arithmatic" crowd because any of the other things can be taught by parents at home if they so wish.

And science? Scientifically, (not biblically) evolution is not up for debate. I think multiple viewpoints should be taught. However, we can't teach doctrine as science. We're not in the age of Gallilao(sp?) any more. I learned a LOT in comparative religion (Taught in high school in Connecticut). It went over the tenants of all major world religions. It is knowledge any educated person should have. And no, no one converted. Just like no one coverts to 'gay' in sex education.

Originally Posted by love roses

I also think Muslims should not be allowed to do their prayers in school. I've heard that there are some schools who make this allowance for them and I think that's pitiful especially if the same concession is not made for Christian or Jewish or Hindu students.

Umm.. I don't think anyone of any religion is stopped from praying in school. Prostelitizing, or leading a religious service, or if you're "prayer" involves putting down the beliefs of others, than that should be prohibited. But students should be able to pray anytime they want.

However, if you want ORGANIZED school prayer, the prayers should be chanted in Hebrew and be from the Torah. Don't like that idea? Now you know how I feel.

[TexasHorseLady]

I agree that no public, organized prayers should be held in schools or other venues where our government could be interpreted as sponsoring them.

One thing that many folks don't realize is that freedom to have the government keep its mitts off of our religion also means that religion must stay out of government. It's a two-way street, and if you want the former, you have to accept the latter.

So, anyone pushing the teaching of creationism in the public schools (as opposed to private schools where they are free to teach it if they wish) is actually also pushing for government control of their own religion, whether they realize it or not.

Liberalism is not a religion, though I would say that it, and conservatism, for that matter, are both used by way too many as an expression of their religious needs. However, the impulse that I spoke of above, the impulse to "elect people who are only more ridiculous and moralizing who see government as a way to force their morals on others", is not a religious impulse in and of itself. It's a control impulse, and liberals display it just as strongly as, and in many cases more strongly than, conservatives. They just don't want to acknowledge that they're no different than the conservatives that they impugn in that regard.

[brattpowered]

Originally Posted by mlassoff

Ok-- So I heard the conservative members of the Texas State BOE want to remove references in the social studies curriculum to Thurgood Marshall (to be replaced by Sam Houston) and to remove references to Cesar Chavez.

They have also decided to include creationism as science, and also desire to "emphasize the roles of the Bible, the Christian faith and the civic virtue of religion in the study of American history."

Still think your child is going to get a first class education in Texas? If I had a kid in the public schools I'd be moving and quick. (Even without a kid, I am moving). Still think there is no Christian hegemony in Texas?

Speak up people. You elected the people who appointed these clowns.

Reference-- The "liberal" (not so much) Wall Street Journal. The Culture Wars' New Front: U.S. History Classes in Texas - WSJ.com

Cmon MLassoff-- it's Texas. They're just "living and letting live"! Get with the program, you elitist bigot.

[hstfan82]

What's proposed and what will actually become a reality are two different things. McLeroy was, thankfully, removed from the top position on the board. When it comes time to have public hearings on this matter, I suspect that it won't turn out nearly as bad as it is right now. As a teacher in Texas, I can tell you that we are not restrained that much by the TEKS, though I would hate for this stuff to get in textbooks in any way.