Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
^ Personally, I paid close to $1.9K for a studio in Boston. I'm sure I can get a studio in Toronto for maybe $1.2K if I wanted (although I am in the process of buying a house instead). But I also made $40K more in Boston or $2K more a month so I could afford the extra $700 in my specific situation (working in financial services). And coworkers from other lower cost cities feel the same way. Rent is higher but so is compensation and they are building more personal wealth over time as people get more senior and take advantages of opportunities in their fields.
But I agree with your situation, 100K is not enough to afford say $3K in rent comfortably. You would need a roommate in cities like Boston and New York unless you want to live further out. But you are also assuming 100K entitles one to a high standard of living in these places when it is not considered a high salary in these city cores. I have a friend who works as an HR Manager in NYC and she makes over 100K and has a roommate in the UES. However, I do agree that rents are crazy high in places like NYC or London and many people will end up with less disposable income than a lower cost city, especially early in their careers, but for many this is part of the price of getting into certain worlds. When I lived in NYC for a year a while ago, I saved very little that year, but the only regret I had was not staying longer People continue to pay up for the professional/life experiences and long-term potential - which are much more plentiful if you can make your way.
It also seems that most places are always rented out so there are amazingly many people (especially on Wall Street) who can afford them. The market couldn't otherwise bear it. I think you have a lot of ballers or accomplished people who make big money who can afford crazy rents and everyone else either has to get a roommate to split the cost in the city, move further out of the city core (not trendy Brooklyn enclaves, think Jersey or Queens), or live in a more gritty neighborhoods. Every world city is like this. It may not make financial sense but there are many people who do pay more than they probably should to be in the "scene" - to socialize, build networks, status, connections, etc. I also found Manhattan attracts a lot of Trust fund babies from all over who otherwise couldn't survive there on their own.
End of day, depends on the person. Who they are and what they want. People continue to flock to high rent places for many reasons.
Last edited by johnathanc; 01-06-2015 at 03:54 PM..
I agree that it varies all across the board. Plus even within a city it changes depending on your neighborhood and also what type of car you own.
We have one car in Massachusetts and we pay $1,156.00 a year (2005 Audi A8) for 2 drivers in Cambridge (I actually just got home this week and opened my renewal, lol) For my motorcycle I pay $289.00 a year. There is also a multi policy discount in there somewhere as well.
I also agree about the rents. Toronto is incredibly affordable for a city of its size and stature. Toronto and Chicago always stand out to me as two places that offer alot to their residents and affordable rents to go along with it. With that said the people paying these rents in SF and Boston typically gravitate towards certain fields of employment that thrive in those markets (Medical, Tech, Higher Ed, Asset Management, Life Science/Biotech Research, etc...) Those are fields that traditionally do not pay very well in Toronto, especially compared to the two cities you mentioned. There are also other options outside of the core that are Metro accessible that are cheaper as well.
So everything is relative.
Oh absolutely I mean we can start trying to expand the conversation to include incomes on a per capita basis, median family income basis and go from micro to macro economics etc etc - there are way too many variables to make broad brush stroked conclusions... 1156 is a pretty good rate no complaints there. To be honest, the 1600 (My insurance actually went up living in Etobicoke vs DT Toronto - I was shocked lol) I pay per year is far from destroying me financially.. Would I rather not pay it - sure but its not like saving 400 dollars a year is going to mean the difference between eating or not - I'd just blow the 400 bucks on an XBox1 and i've already got a sore thumb from playing PS4 so no biggie
If anything the rent my partner and I pay is much much less than what we could afford, yet we also LOVE to travel so the less we pay for a roof over the head, the more we can travel and spend on things we are passionate about and enjoy.. Having said that, I know not everyone in the world are DINK's making more than probably 90% of the worlds population so we do count our blessings and consider ourselves priviledged. I mean, not that having kids is bad but they can be very expensive...
^ Personally, I paid close to $1.9K for a studio in Boston. I'm sure I can get a studio in Toronto for maybe $1.2K if I wanted (although I am in the process of buying a house instead). But I also made $40K more in Boston or $2K more a month so I could afford the extra $700 in my specific situation (working in financial services). And coworkers from other lower cost cities feel the same way. Rent is higher but so is compensation and they are building more personal wealth over time as people get more senior and take advantages of opportunities in their fields.
But I agree with your situation, 100K is not enough to afford say $3K in rent comfortably. You would need a roommate in cities like Boston and New York unless you want to live further out. But you are also assuming 100K entitles one to a high standard of living in these places when it is not considered a high salary in these city cores. I have a friend who works as an HR Manager in NYC and she makes over 100K and has a roommate in the UES. However, I do agree that rents are crazy high in places like NYC or London and many people will end up with less disposable income than a lower cost city, especially early in their careers, but for many this is part of the price of getting into certain worlds. When I lived in NYC for a year a while ago, I saved very little that year, but the only regret I had was not staying longer People continue to pay up for the professional/life experiences and long-term potential - which are much more plentiful if you can make your way.
It also seems that most places are always rented out so there are amazingly many people (especially on Wall Street) who can afford them. The market couldn't otherwise bear it. I think you have a lot of ballers or accomplished people who make big money who can afford crazy rents and everyone else either has to get a roommate to split the cost in the city, move further out of the city core (not trendy Brooklyn enclaves, think Jersey or Queens), or live in a more gritty neighborhoods. Every world city is like this. It may not make financial sense but there are many people who do pay more than they probably should to be in the "scene" - to socialize, build networks, status, connections, etc. I also found Manhattan attracts a lot of Trust fund babies from all over who otherwise couldn't survive there on their own.
End of day, depends on the person. Who they are and what they want. People continue to flock to high rent places for many reasons.
You should start calling around and get some quotes!!
^ Personally, I paid close to $1.9K for a studio in Boston. I'm sure I can get a studio in Toronto for maybe $1.2K if I wanted (although I am in the process of buying a house instead). But I also made $40K more in Boston or $2K more a month so I could afford the extra $700 in my specific situation (working in financial services). And coworkers from other lower cost cities feel the same way. Rent is higher but so is compensation and they are building more personal wealth over time as people get more senior and take advantages of opportunities in their fields.
But I agree with your situation, 100K is not enough to afford say $3K in rent comfortably. You would need a roommate in cities like Boston and New York unless you want to live further out. But you are also assuming 100K entitles one to a high standard of living in these places when it is not considered a high salary in these city cores. I have a friend who works as an HR Manager in NYC and she makes over 100K and has a roommate in the UES. However, I do agree that rents are crazy high in places like NYC or London and many people will end up with less disposable income than a lower cost city, especially early in their careers, but for many this is part of the price of getting into certain worlds. When I lived in NYC for a year a while ago, I saved very little that year, but the only regret I had was not staying longer People continue to pay up for the professional/life experiences and long-term potential - which are much more plentiful if you can make your way.
It also seems that most places are always rented out so there are amazingly many people (especially on Wall Street) who can afford them. The market couldn't otherwise bear it. I think you have a lot of ballers or accomplished people who make big money who can afford crazy rents and everyone else either has to get a roommate to split the cost in the city, move further out of the city core (not trendy Brooklyn enclaves, think Jersey or Queens), or live in a more gritty neighborhoods. Every world city is like this. It may not make financial sense but there are many people who do pay more than they probably should to be in the "scene" - to socialize, build networks, status, connections, etc. I also found Manhattan attracts a lot of Trust fund babies from all over who otherwise couldn't survive there on their own.
End of day, depends on the person. Who they are and what they want. People continue to flock to high rent places for many reasons.
Good post. I agree that people sacrifice certain things to live in certain cities. NYC and London for example can ruin a person financially if they are not careful, but the rewards are pretty great if big city living is your thing.
My sister is a non equity partner at a law firm in NYC and she left Manhattan for Brooklyn because rents got too out of control. I have no idea how much she makes, but I assume its nothing under $400k a year.
Rent costs are a major issue in Boston and SF though. We tried to get into the market to buy as soon as we could, because its the only real "rent control" that exists in the city. As you said though there is a reason why those cities still attract people in certain fields, at the end of the day the economics of it work out for many after you weigh everything.
Good luck in your move back to Toronto btw, hope everything works out well for you.
what you said is probably true. But the fact is that if I moved to Los Angeles or the Bay area or Chicago next month, my car insurance for a regular small car will be $1500 or less while if I decided to have a car here tomorrow, it would be $2500-3000.
For people who have a spotless track record of 10 years, maybe it doesn't make a difference, but for relatively new drivers, it is insanely high. Not that I want a car now. I love the flexibility of driving when I want, but I loathe the need to drive whenever I leave home.
We have a way of gouging people when it comes to certain things... New car driver HIGH RISK, Smoker - High Health RISK - gouge with sin taxes.. Alcohol - Sin Tax and GOUGE -em because they might DUI and develop Cirhossis etc.. In most cases in either the U.S or Canada one way or another - The man is gonna get ya but we are still fortunate to live in Canamerica.... I think when you are in Lisboa - even though it is an urban and interesting city spend some time imagining living there and in that economy....We're fortunate...
Oh absolutely I mean we can start trying to expand the conversation to include incomes on a per capita basis, median family income basis and go from micro to macro economics etc etc - there are way too many variables to make broad brush stroked conclusions... 1156 is a pretty good rate no complaints there. To be honest, the 1600 (My insurance actually went up living in Etobicoke vs DT Toronto - I was shocked lol) I pay per year is far from destroying me financially.. Would I rather not pay it - sure but its not like saving 400 dollars a year is going to mean the difference between eating or not - I'd just blow the 400 bucks on an XBox1 and i've already got a sore thumb from playing PS4 so no biggie
If anything the rent my partner and I pay is much much less than what we could afford, yet we also LOVE to travel so the less we pay for a roof over the head, the more we can travel and spend on things we are passionate about and enjoy.. Having said that, I know not everyone in the world are DINK's making more than probably 90% of the worlds population so we do count our blessings and consider ourselves priviledged. I mean, not that having kids is bad but they can be very expensive...
Agreed all around. There are so many variables that play into this. I am glad you are not starving due to car insurance. People like us do need to keep in mind our circumstances as you mentioned. Alot of young professionals are not married like you and I and need to carry these costs on their own. So a few hundred bucks a year could make a difference in someone's lifestyle. I am grateful that I am married and have a built in "Roommate" that happens to make a high salary.
I also agree that you have your priorities straight funneling money into the things that you enjoy in life. You only have one life, so may as well be happy.
You are preaching to the choir on the kids man. I only have one and they are rewarding but expensive. I am back home now to register her for school in September and I cant wait to stop paying private primary school
fees. Hooray for public schools.
You are preaching to the choir on the kids man. I only have one and they are rewarding but expensive. I am back home now to register her for school in September and I cant wait to stop paying private primary school
fees. Hooray for public schools.
Oh yeah - Private Schooling would be uber expensive.. I think in some cases it may be worth it but i'm sure P.S's in Boston would offer a good quality education that would challenge the value of paying all that money for Private education!! I'm sure you have done all the requisite homework in the matter... Plus i'm sure you have to save for Harvard or M.I.T
Good post. I agree that people sacrifice certain things to live in certain cities. NYC and London for example can ruin a person financially if they are not careful, but the rewards are pretty great if big city living is your thing.
My sister is a non equity partner at a law firm in NYC and she left Manhattan for Brooklyn because rents got too out of control. I have no idea how much she makes, but I assume its nothing under $400k a year.
Rent costs are a major issue in Boston and SF though. We tried to get into the market to buy as soon as we could, because its the only real "rent control" that exists in the city. As you said though there is a reason why those cities still attract people in certain fields, at the end of the day the economics of it work out for many after you weigh everything.
Good luck in your move back to Toronto btw, hope everything works out well for you.
Thanks, it's nice to be closer to family and old friends again and there are so many new spots in the city to try out so it's been good so far...except for the effing ice cold weather. And congrats on getting a place in Cambridge (I believe that's where you are now). If I were to buy in the Boston area, I probably would lean towards Cambridge myself. It's a great place for a young family or even a single person with lots of interesting opportunities. Toronto real estate is still very expensive but I'm getting close on something as we speak. It's a lot cheaper to rent here but I want and need a home at this point in my life. If I were still single, I'd definitely find a modest rental though (similar to fusion's philosophy). In addition to higher incomes, I'm not sure how to measure it but there seems to be a larger transient element in cities like NY, Boston and SF which may also add to rental pressures. Regardless, I'm still astounded by what some people get paid in certain fields/places - I find salaries have really spiked for people in certain fields/industries and likely have stagnated for many others which could also explain how certain rental markets sustained. Just the other day, a youngish (about 30...I'm starting to sound like an old man) friend of a friend, got a job at Facebook paying 220K all in + 160K of restricted stock (4 year straight line vesting) + other option grants and who knows what else. I'm sure he'll be ok paying 3K in rent in Silicon Valley, otherwise he wouldn't move for the opportunity.
Last edited by johnathanc; 01-07-2015 at 07:12 AM..
Thanks, it's nice to be closer to family and old friends again and there are so many new spots in the city to try out so it's been good so far...except for the effing ice cold weather. And congrats on getting a place in Cambridge (I believe that's where you are now). If I were to buy in the Boston area, I probably would lean towards Cambridge myself. It's a great place for a young family or even a single person with lots of interesting opportunities. Toronto real estate is still very expensive but I'm getting close on something as we speak. It's a lot cheaper to rent here but I want and need a home at this point in my life. If I were still single, I'd definitely find a modest rental though (similar to fusion's philosophy). In addition to higher incomes, I'm not sure how to measure it but there seems to be a larger transient element in cities like NY, Boston and SF which may also add to rental pressures. Regardless, I'm still astounded by what some people get paid in certain fields/places - I find salaries have really spiked for people in certain fields/industries and likely have stagnated for many others which could also explain how certain rental markets sustained. Just the other day, a youngish (about 30...I'm starting to sound like an old man) friend of a friend, got a job at Facebook paying 220K all in + 160K of restricted stock (4 year straight line vesting) + other option grants and who knows what else. I'm sure he'll be ok paying 3K in rent in Silicon Valley, otherwise he wouldn't move for the opportunity.
Much better off in Austin or Raleigh/Durham with similar tech jobs and much much lower cost of living and none of that pretense and hype in Bay Area. Not to be a party pooper, but what does this increasing gentrification mean for the vast majority of families in Bay Area and so many others who are working above barely minimum wage? I'm sure it all comes down to economics and market demand, but seems that ordinary/poorer families always end up with the shorter end of the stick no matter which economic condition we are in.
Much better off in Austin or Raleigh/Durham with similar tech jobs and much much lower cost of living and none of that pretense and hype in Bay Area. Not to be a party pooper, but what does this increasing gentrification mean for the vast majority of families in Bay Area and so many others who are working above barely minimum wage? I'm sure it all comes down to economics and market demand, but seems that ordinary/poorer families always end up with the shorter end of the stick no matter which economic condition we are in.
I agree, there is a lot of friggin wealth being created out there but it's not equal. The prime real estate will be assumed by those with money and those with less are pushed further and further away or just have to contend with lower living standards overall. Income distribution in the US has never been equal and Canada, although not as unequal, is becoming more unequal too.
After moving back to Toronto, I find the real estate prices vs. income levels in this city are creating a very evident divide between haves and have nots nowadays compared to anything I saw growing up. I'm following the RE market closely and anywhere close to public transportation and good schools are astronomically priced. If you can't afford it, you end up in a not so nice neighborhood or move further out to the burbs and take a long commute. Similar trend in terms of buying as other places.
Last edited by johnathanc; 01-07-2015 at 09:51 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
People continue to pay up for the professional/life experiences and long-term potential - which are much more plentiful if you can make your way.
People like us do need to keep in mind our circumstances as you mentioned. Alot of young professionals are not married like you and I and need to carry these costs on their own. So a few hundred bucks a year could make a difference in someone's lifestyle. I am grateful that I am married and have a built in "Roommate" that happens to make a high salary. 
