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Old 02-22-2012, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Fife
6,583 posts, read 4,450,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ian6479 View Post
I think people in the UK should take not of the suggested reforms, but this is a paper that's been around for a year, and like much of politics in the UK, most people are completely apathetic to what is going on - that is until they are personally affected.
Exactly, people need to stand up and look at what this government is doing.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Fife
6,583 posts, read 4,450,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonborn View Post
I do agree that much could be learnt from countries like France and Germany. Their average healthcare expenditures are a tad higher, but they get a lot more in return. Food for thought?
Sometimes I wish I was called Klaus and lived in Dusseldorf!
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Purgatory
2,667 posts, read 2,260,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paull805 View Post
Sometimes I wish I was called Klaus and lived in Dusseldorf!
Learn some Deutsche and move to Dusseldorf! You have the EU at your disposal.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Fife
6,583 posts, read 4,450,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonborn View Post
Learn some Deutsche and move to Dusseldorf! You have the EU at your disposal.
Haha na I'd miss Scotland to much, might learn a bit of ze old German though!

Back on subject it's all down hill for our NHS the way things are going.

http://www.nhsca.org.uk/docs/cliveprivate.pdf

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/jo...-privatisation
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:02 PM
 
Location: The Silver State (from the UK)
3,575 posts, read 4,034,907 times
Reputation: 2156
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonborn View Post
Yep, don't worry, I'm not going to get into the UK versus US thing. I was just using the graphs to illustrate my point that for all its faults, the NHS is still good value for money.

This may not be privatisation in the true sense, but it may lead to it, hence the back door privatisation notion that Paul mentioned. Be under no illusions that back door privatisation is exactly what it is. They (the government) just don't have the balls to try to do it outright.

I do agree that much could be learnt from countries like France and Germany. Their average healthcare expenditures are a tad higher, but they get a lot more in return. Food for thought?
Certainly food for thought. The single payer systems seen to be the most effective at actually offering good coverage compared to cost. The NHS is brilliant in terms of covering everybody and is free at the point of use, but standards and accessibility to good care are deteriorating. I have coverage in the US with my employer but should I lose my job, I could lose my care - not good!!

Ultimately, David Cameron is Thatcher 2.0 (whom I despise). Anti union, state, regulation, tax and a belief that government has only a small role to play in society. Usually any form of 'reform' of a government program means shifting ownership and operation to the 'free market' without regulation. The problems these politics have caused dont even need to be stated. Here in the US Obama would have passed a far better health care bill (it would have at least contained a 'public option') in the were it not for that very ideology from American conservatives.
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:20 AM
 
3,062 posts, read 3,987,845 times
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I can't comment on it as I haven't read it. A page or 10, yeah, I'd read it. 460 pages? No.

For anyone interested in actually reading it, it is located here.

http://www.publications.parliament.u...19/2012119.pdf
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:35 AM
 
Location: Leeds, UK
14,345 posts, read 7,840,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paull805 View Post
Exactly, people need to stand up and look at what this government is doing.
People don't know what the government is doing. It's not privatizing the NHS so people have no reason to revolt. Certain things will improve, but certain things (such as the healthcare postcode lottery) probably won't. The NHS needs reforming.
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:38 AM
 
Location: Leeds, UK
14,345 posts, read 7,840,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paull805 View Post
Haha na I'd miss Scotland to much, might learn a bit of ze old German though!

Back on subject it's all down hill for our NHS the way things are going.

http://www.nhsca.org.uk/docs/cliveprivate.pdf

The NHS reforms still amount to privatisation | Society | guardian.co.uk
When people think of privatization they think of having to take out health insurance. This will not happen. There may be more involvement by private companies but this doesn't mean people will have to use private healthcare. As things stand the healthcare service will remain taxpayer funded and free at the point of use wherever you are (with a couple of exceptions that have been in place for a long time).

But to be frank, that Guardian article has no reliable sources whatsoever. They state the government is lying by saying the NHS will not be privatized but it doesn't provide any links as to why this is true. I'm sorry but I think there is massive fuss over nothing, the government cannot lie about privatizing the NHS, people will clearly know, it is not something you can hide or sneakily introduce, this is not the EU, this is not tax, this is the NHS, a dearly loved institution that has existed for the vast majority of people, if the NHS actually became privatized do you think people wouldn't notice? I mean really.

Last edited by dunno what to put here; 02-23-2012 at 02:53 AM..
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:31 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,039 posts, read 14,637,079 times
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To me the NHS reforms put forward by Cameron and his cronies is privatisation by the back door.

Interestingly the Medical Professions are all against it and yet once again the Politicians are arrogant enough to think they know better.... I think 19 of the 20 Medical Colleges which represent Medical Professionals are not only against Lansley's plans but pretty virulently so...

Reform might be needed but this is not the way to go about it. I would think for a start ANY government whether Tory or Labour would want to be doing this with the assent of the Medical Professions. I know the Public has no say and we don't count but at least listen to the guys who deal with the system on a daily basis. Anything else is presumptuous beyond belief and can only lead to disaster IMO.

I simply do not know how Cameron , Osborne and his cronies get away with all the crap they do. They almost seem Teflon coated. I suppose it must be good to have a despised coalition partner to take the heat. Clegg seems to get far more aggravation than Cameron. I think the British public has just been worn down by a collective form of depression and fatalism and has just given up the fight.
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Old 02-23-2012, 05:38 AM
 
701 posts, read 494,967 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonborn View Post
Yep, don't worry, I'm not going to get into the UK versus US thing. I was just using the graphs to illustrate my point that for all its faults, the NHS is still good value for money.
1) Offer a rationale of how the %ofGDP stats add up. Just posting a graph like that might as well be comparing apples with oranges. Different countries count health spending in different ways.

2)It doesnt illustrate any particular value for money. The 2008/9 figs are right on the OECD average, about 8% against an average of just over 8%.

3)All that graph illustrates is inputs, not outputs. Thus your subjective view for 'value for money' is impossible to ascertain from that info alone, assuming it is even directly comparable to other nations. If you look at the graph i post below, it suggests, using life expectancy as one base, we (gbr) get about bang on average 'value'. Not good, not bad.




I really dont get what all the fuss is about. About 2/3rds of German Hospitals are privately run. I don't hear many horror stories about German healthcare. Everyone knows the US model is crap. And despite all the blaming that on private involvment, Medicare/Medicaid combined aren't that far off NHS expenditure. The US cost is generally down to drugs company lobbyists inflating the cost of drugs for US insurers and taxpayers and very little to do with hospitals.

The only 'arguments' ive heard are ideological. Just saying 'oh no, privatization' isnt an argument on its own. Its inane.

Anyway...

The Public/Private debate is irrelevant. The NHS, as with all developed countries healthcare systems, regardless of ownership, will collapse within the next decade or two.

NHS spending was TRIPLED during the period 1997-2010.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article18562.html
Average take home pay in that period didnt even increase 60%, let alone 200%. Healthcare spending WILL bankrupt every developed nation if allowed to grow unabated. This is not political conjecture, this is basic mathematics. I dont care which way you slice it, private, public, it has to, and will stop.

We all want better healthcare, but there simply isnt the wealth to pay for it.
The basic problem is humans are only designed to live 60-70 years. Every extra year, month, week after that, and costs increase exponentially. Its diminishing returns. A lot of jokes made about Obamas 'Death panels', but in the near future that will become a reality for 99.9% of people regardless of the system they use.


Note how the biggest benefit from health spending comes from 0-$500 per capita. Above that, benefits derived decrease until being imperceptible or even falling (US)

The truth is the only affordable way to improve health is for PEOPLE to exercise more and eat less/more healthily. The Japanese spend less and live longer...why, because they lead healthy lives. The yanks spend more, and dont live long. Why? Because theyre fat knackers. Obviously any govt that dares tell the people to be responsible isnt going to get elected though.
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