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My ethnicity is Irish/German, sometimes it comes up in conversations, my family celebrates St. Pat's day, that's just tradition.
Aren't some English of another descent? Of course you are all English and we are all Americans but you have some kind of descent.
I'm asking because my german side started in Switzerland but back then countries were not divided as today, isn't that correct?
With marriages of say Italians and Polish or any mixed ethnics we are one, we do get kidding in marriage and the workplace such as "he's polish what did you expect?" "Stubborn german" "Hot headed Irish" "He has an Italian temper" "He's a limey" "Watch out she has an Irish temper" "He's a pollock"
Out west you don't hear this as much as in the east US
I'd say about 90% of us take it all in fun and have a comeback for them, then the 10% let it get under there skin.
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooting Stars
Yes, America and the United Kingdom went their separate ways ... and evolved differently.
But you underestimate the influence your U.K. heritage has on you and your family. Every family has a family culture and a lot of it is influenced by original nationality. There are distinct differences in the outlooks of different nationalities and some of that survives assimilation.
If there were not differences, recent arrivals would not talk about navigating a culture clash between the expectations of their original culture and the American culture. Eventually, everyone assimilates into the American way, but no group gives up their identity entirely. This can be seen in parenting styles, married life, social life, attitudes toward education and work, etc ...
One of the biggest indicators of my family's U.K. heritage is the lack of extravagant displays of emotion. We've been here forever, but this still persists. Try that in an Italian family and see how far that gets you.
I totally agree re: the importance of acknowledging our roots and ancestry, no matter how far back or "mixed" it may have become. And even the folks who claim theyre "mutts" or "heinz 57 varieties"... if you take a closer look, there are still often certain themes and commonalities. Like say, French, English, Irish and German intermarriages, yet they're all still basically "Northern European"... which is definitely very different than say "Mediterranean" cultures, which usually lack the typical northern european "emotional reserve" and stoicism!
And all those attitudes and values are alive even today in our politics, how we choose our mates, where we live, etc. just as surely as they affect the way we look!
I totally agree re: the importance of acknowledging our roots and ancestry, no matter how far back or "mixed" it may have become. And even the folks who claim theyre "mutts" or "heinz 57 varieties"... if you take a closer look, there are still often certain themes and commonalities. Like say, French, English, Irish and German intermarriages, yet they're all still basically "Northern European"... which is definitely very different than say "Mediterranean" cultures, which usually lack the typical northern european "emotional reserve" and stoicism!
And all those attitudes and values are alive even today in our politics, how we choose our mates, where we live, etc. just as surely as they affect the way we look!
Actually, you will find it was religion, not "emotional reserve" which influenced marriage. And so Italians, Irish and Poles tended to intermarry a lot whenever they lived close to each other.
And even if we follow your line of thought, stereotype would have the Irish and the Poles as "temperamental", despite being Northern European.
I totally agree re: the importance of acknowledging our roots and ancestry, no matter how far back or "mixed" it may have become. And even the folks who claim theyre "mutts" or "heinz 57 varieties"... if you take a closer look, there are still often certain themes and commonalities. Like say, French, English, Irish and German intermarriages, yet they're all still basically "Northern European"... which is definitely very different than say "Mediterranean" cultures, which usually lack the typical northern european "emotional reserve" and stoicism!
And all those attitudes and values are alive even today in our politics, how we choose our mates, where we live, etc. just as surely as they affect the way we look!
quite so, in my experience. My husband is Greek and sometimes he and my in-laws do not seem to get my attitude/view concerning life in general. They are far more invested emotionally than I am in certain areas of life (broadly speaking); overall I believe it to be a great combination, the best of both worlds, as it were.
I'm am as proud of my ancestral heritage as my children are of their combined heritages.
Author (and U.S. Senator) Jim Webb puts forth a thesis in his book Born Fighting to suggest that the character traits he ascribes to the Scotch-Irish such as loyalty to kin, extreme mistrust of governmental authority and legal strictures, and a propensity to bear arms and to use them, helped shape the American identity.
From 1717 to the next thirty or so years, the primary points of entry for the Ulster immigrants were Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and New Castle, Delaware.[citation needed] The Scotch-Irish radiated westward across the Alleghenies, as well as into Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Kentucky, and Tennessee.[32] The typical migration involved small networks of related families who settled together, worshipped together, and intermarried, avoiding outsiders.[33]
Upon arrival in America, the Scotch-Irish at first usually referred to themselves simply as Irish, without the qualifier Scotch. It was not until a century later, following the surge in Irish immigration after the Great Irish Famine of the 1840s, that the descendants of the earlier arrivals began to commonly call themselves Scotch-Irish to distinguish them from the newer, largely destitute and predominantly Roman Catholic immigrants.[11]The two groups had little interaction in America, as the Scotch-Irish had become settled years earlier primarily in the Appalachian region, while the new wave of Irish American families settled primarily in northern and midwestern port cities such as Boston, New York, or Chicago. However, many Irish migrated to the interior in the 19th century to work on large-scale infrastructure projects such as canals and railroads.[12]
And I truly don't notice anything specifically English/British about my family or myself (unless, of course, we're talking about ethnic appearance); in fact, there has always been much more emphasis on our Irish and German ancestral origins (even though there's nothing particularly Irish or German about us in a cultural sense). Likewise, extravagant displays of emotion and extroversion aren't generally common in my family, but why should I assume that to be something distinctly and objectively English/British?
Why should you assume that the absence of extravagant displays of emotion are typically British? Because it's true. They are known for it! As an example, in one of Jane Austin's novels "Emma" written between 1811 and 1816, she describes two grown brothers who live a distance from each other and only see each other at intervals ...
"This had just taken place, and with great cordiality, when John Knightly made his appearance; and "How d'ye do George?" and "John, how are you?" succeeded in the true English style, burying under a calmness that seemed all but indifference the real attachment which would have led either of them, if requisite, to do everything for the good of the other."
As far as not noticing anything British about your family, well, most people don't see themselves objectively.
What is misleading is that you might visit the U.K. and only see the differences between them and your American self. Those differences are real. But what is hard to see is how many attitudes you've inherited because they're in the background and not really thought about.
See the other discussion in the U.K. forum about the book Albion's Seed to see how the different groups migrating from the U.K. have influenced America and the differences that persist to this very day.
Last edited by Shooting Stars; 09-25-2012 at 07:36 AM..
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,852 posts, read 10,454,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeIsWhere...
quite so, in my experience. My husband is Greek and sometimes he and my in-laws do not seem to get my attitude/view concerning life in general. They are far more invested emotionally than I am in certain areas of life (broadly speaking); overall I believe it to be a great combination, the best of both worlds, as it were.
I'm am as proud of my ancestral heritage as my children are of their combined heritages.
Author (and U.S. Senator) Jim Webb puts forth a thesis in his book Born Fighting to suggest that the character traits he ascribes to the Scotch-Irish such as loyalty to kin, extreme mistrust of governmental authority and legal strictures, and a propensity to bear arms and to use them, helped shape the American identity.
From 1717 to the next thirty or so years, the primary points of entry for the Ulster immigrants were Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and New Castle, Delaware.[citation needed] The Scotch-Irish radiated westward across the Alleghenies, as well as into Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Kentucky, and Tennessee.[32] The typical migration involved small networks of related families who settled together, worshipped together, and intermarried, avoiding outsiders.[33]
Upon arrival in America, the Scotch-Irish at first usually referred to themselves simply as Irish, without the qualifier Scotch. It was not until a century later, following the surge in Irish immigration after the Great Irish Famine of the 1840s, that the descendants of the earlier arrivals began to commonly call themselves Scotch-Irish to distinguish them from the newer, largely destitute and predominantly Roman Catholic immigrants.[11]The two groups had little interaction in America, as the Scotch-Irish had become settled years earlier primarily in the Appalachian region, while the new wave of Irish American families settled primarily in northern and midwestern port cities such as Boston, New York, or Chicago. However, many Irish migrated to the interior in the 19th century to work on large-scale infrastructure projects such as canals and railroads.[12]
That's great you can actually notice that overall difference in "emotional investment" between the cultures! And being of the "I"talian-American persuasion myself, and having traveled and moved around a fair bit before retiring, I also usually notice those local attitudes re: "emotional" expression, which IMO often seem to break down along "climate" lines. So that the more southerly cultures closer to the equator, even in asia, not surprisingly also tend to be the ones that seem more emotionally outgoing and expressive, than say, the typical reserve and self-reliant stoicism seen in the more "northerly" ones.
And indeed, as ShootingStars also mentions, the impact of the Scots-Irish culture (speaking of stoicism) on the character and development of the U.S. has been huge, which Jim Webb's book, "Born Fighting" details very well. Even here in otherwise liberal California, their influence can still be felt, especially in the overwhelmingly conservative and agricultural Central Valley and eastern half of the state. Which BTW, is where the majority of the Scots-Irish "Okies" settled, after they headed out west following the Dust Bowl and the Great Depression. Although now ironically, many of them and their descendants, fed up with California's "liberalism" (and no longer cheap cost of living) are doing reverse migrationsback to OK, TX, AR, MO, etc.!
Last edited by mateo45; 09-25-2012 at 08:03 AM..
Reason: links..
Why should you assume that the absence of extravagant displays of emotion are typically British? Because it's true. They are known for it! As an example, in one of Jane Austin's novels "Emma" written between 1811 and 1816, she describes two grown brothers who live a distance from each other and only see each other at intervals ...
"This had just taken place, and with great cordiality, when John Knightly made his appearance; and "How d'ye do George?" and "John, how are you?" succeeded in the true English style, burying under a calmness that seemed all but indifference the real attachment which would have led either of them, if requisite, to do everything for the good of the other."
I of course wouldn't deny that the English/British are more reserved compared to other European cultures (as well as in contrast to Americans), but in the case of my family, I still find it difficult to believe that our general demeanor (with a few exceptions, of course) is directly linked to a fraction of our geneology. Hell, I guess some people might just call us dysfunctional and disconnected; however, if those characteristics are synonymous with British family dynamics, you may, after all, have a point.
In any case, I do think that you should keep in mind the fact that, by and large, the British (along with probably all other European nationalities/cultures) do not, for various reasons, consider the U.S. and Americans to be their kin on a cultural level. Europe in general has a history of intellectual, cultural and political skepticism (if not outright hostility) toward the U.S. that is just as old as our independence. What sense, realistically, does it make to maintain these strange emotional attachments to people and countries that actually tend to look favorably at greater cultural and political detachment/distinction from us (American political Europhiles will interpret the U.S.-Europe situation much differently, I presume).
And in fairness, it isn't just European countries that have historically tended toward various levels of anti-American sentiments--many of the founders of the U.S. were nothing if not anti-British in particular and anti-Europe (excluding France for a short time) in general. The fact that Americans and Europeans have become so profoundly different is not a simple accident of history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooting Stars
As far as not noticing anything British about your family, well, most people don't see themselves objectively.
What is misleading is that you might visit the U.K. and only see the differences between them and your American self. Those differences are real. But what is hard to see is how many attitudes you've inherited because they're in the background and not really thought about.
See the other discussion in the U.K. forum about the book Albion's Seed to see how the different groups migrating from the U.K. have influenced America and the differences that persist to this very day.
I'm not suggesting that it's absolutely untrue that certain aspects of the U.S.'s former connection to the British are still evident in some American cultural norms, but, as you mention, we don't really think about them; frankly, I think we should keep it that way. It may seem rather cold of me to think this way, but I honestly don't believe that Americans are doing themselves or their fellow citizens any favors by viewing their nationality as being more or less co-equal to their ancestry.
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montguy
I'm not suggesting that it's absolutely untrue that certain aspects of the U.S.'s former connection to the British are still evident in some American cultural norms, but, as you mention, we don't really think about them; frankly, I think we should keep it that way. It may seem rather cold of me to think this way, but I honestly don't believe that Americans are doing themselves or their fellow citizens any favors by viewing their nationality as being more or less co-equal to their ancestry.
If you don't mind, am curious, what are the downsides to that (if it were so)? Or are you suggesting that having an appreciation for one's ancestry, history and influences, only helps to undermine our sense of nationality?
If you don't mind, am curious, what are the downsides to that (if it were so)? Or are you suggesting that having an appreciation for one's ancestry, history and influences, only helps to undermine our sense of nationality?
Yes, that's precisely what I'm suggesting.
Americans in the 21st century need to devote more thought to what an "American identity" might be instead of preceding such ponderings with thoughts of where their GGGG-Grandparents came from. If we believe that our country truly has a history of being a genuine "melting-pot," then why, in order to have a sense of identity, examine and celebrate any minor characteristic about this place or this group that/whom may superficially seem kind of German, Italian, Greek, Swedish, Irish, Enlgish, etc.?
And before anyone accuses me of simply espousing a bunch of right-wing, flag-waving, hyper-nationalist sentiment, rest assured that none of that is true. I'm simply a non-hyphenated American who actually embraces that fact instead of celebrating the national/cultural origins of my deceased ancestors.
Lastly, I should note that when I actually do acknowledge my immigrant ancestors, I try to acknowledge them as having been Americans--I have a feeling they would have wanted it that way, don't you think?
In any case, I do think that you should keep in mind the fact that, by and large, the British (along with probably all other European nationalities/cultures) do not, for various reasons, consider the U.S. and Americans to be their kin on a cultural level. Europe in general has a history of intellectual, cultural and political skepticism (if not outright hostility) toward the U.S. that is just as old as our independence.
What sense, realistically, does it make to maintain these strange emotional attachments to people and countries that actually tend to look favorably at greater cultural and political detachment/distinction from us (American political Europhiles will interpret the U.S.-Europe situation much differently, I presume).
And in fairness, it isn't just European countries that have historically tended toward various levels of anti-American sentiments--many of the founders of the U.S. were nothing if not anti-British in particular and anti-Europe (excluding France for a short time) in general. The fact that Americans and Europeans have become so profoundly different is not a simple accident of history.
I am well aware of all of this. Furthermore, I have business dealings with a company in the U.K. and we have had candid discussions about all of this.
I think people have attachments to their ancestors individuallives in the U.K. more than the U.K. itself. It is only significant because of blood ties and many Americans have grown up with stories of their ancestors. And we're not talking about ancestors from thousands of years ago; it was relatively recent.
Just because people have an interest in the lives of their more distant relatives, doesn't mean they are rushing to forget they are Americans. You can be American to the core and still appreciate these old lifetimes that were lived in your family.
You are tying it to country, whereas a lot of us are tying it to our interest in family.
Last edited by Shooting Stars; 09-27-2012 at 04:42 AM..
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Yes...
