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An employee agrees to service their employer, an employer agrees to service their customer. Because an employee refuses to service a customer does not mean that the company is refusing to service that customer, there are very simple ways to avoid any embarrassment. Indeed in the instance reported by the telegraph M&S responded with the following apology... BBC News - M&S apology over Muslim alcohol refusal
The thing I find ironic is that Michael Marks (joint founder) was from a Belarusian Jewish family, who was orthodox enough to have refused to sell pork products (i.e. married in a synagog, buried in a Jewish cemetery etc.), so the fact that M&S is selling pork is a little incongruous from one of the founders ethical positions.
Yeah, but you can't start picking and choosing which otherwise everyday items certain employees can choose to sell. It's ridiculous. I mean, if you start here, where does it end? Why would grocery businesses in the UK be anything but secular and independent of religion anyways?
Maybe the reason the founder never implemented his ethical position is because he respects the many different opinions of others? Isn't he dead now? The decision probably had nothing to do with him.
Some of the commenters of that article have also pointed out that even in Morocco and Tunisia, Muslim majority countries, there are no qualms with Muslims handling packaged pork and alcohol in stores. No one is forcing the employee to consume them, therefor it isn't a problem.
Also, I don't understand the 'embarassment' component. I feel like any cashier who tries this stunt on the average shopper in London is going to be the person everyone gets annoyed with. It's not the guest's problem that you choose to refuse touching pork and alcohol in grocery store. That's part of food service and if it bothers you that much, I'm afraid you should design your own business in order to sustain yourself.
Yeah, but you can't start picking and choosing which otherwise everyday items certain employees can choose to sell. It's ridiculous. I mean, if you start here, where does it end? Why would grocery businesses in the UK be anything but secular and independent of religion anyways?
That's not for us to say, it's between the business and it's employees, and the business and it's customers. Although I will point out that many Indian restaurants are Halal which is a religious restriction on food. In the US there are many Kosher Deli's again more religious restrictions on food. Food and religion are closely tied, so any grocer who is not already aware of this perhaps should not be in the business.
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Originally Posted by Jesse44
Maybe the reason the founder never implemented his ethical position is because he respects the many different opinions of others? Isn't he dead now? The decision probably had nothing to do with him.
Nope, he never implemented it because at that time M&S was not a food retailer, and while the decision has nothing to do with him, as a follower of Judaism had he been a food retailer he would not have been selling pork products.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse44
Some of the commenters of that article have also pointed out that even in Morocco and Tunisia, Muslim majority countries, there are no qualms with Muslims handling packaged pork and alcohol in stores. No one is forcing the employee to consume them, therefor it isn't a problem.
In your opinion it isn't a problem, but that's worth less than nothing in this situation. Firstly I don't think you're Muslim, and secondly I don't think you work at M&S, unless both of those are true your opinion has no value.
What's the solution? Require that all customer service representatives deal with all customers for all store merchandise regardless of any personal, legal, or religious concerns of those representatives? So for instance people who work in catering should not be allowed to avoid shifts where their former spouse or partner comes to that establishment, after they had an acrimonious break up? People of Jewish faith should not be allowed to avoid Saturday work? Hindu's should be required to work behind the meat counter handling both pork and beef? 14 year old Saturday job workers should be prepared to sell pornographic books, magazines, DVD's and sex toys?
If you can't make an exception you can't make an exception, the alternative is called hypocrisy, or prejudice take your pick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse44
Also, I don't understand the 'embarassment' component. I feel like any cashier who tries this stunt on the average shopper in London is going to be the person everyone gets annoyed with. It's not the guest's problem that you choose to refuse touching pork and alcohol in grocery store. That's part of food service and if it bothers you that much, I'm afraid you should design your own business in order to sustain yourself.
Which is what M&S has said that it does, this was apparently a single mistake, the M&S policy is to put people with ethical concerns into departments where those concerns are not an issue.
The embarrassment factor is that the rest of the customers do not know the reason for refusal of service, most commonly it's because of declined payment, conversations between a cashier and customer are notionally private (they can be overheard, but they're not put over the PA), if you're 3-4 people back in the line and you see someone refused service, what is your immediate assumption going to be? Are you going to be annoyed at the cashier, or the customer? Would you be likely to believe they were refused service because of an ethical concern from the cashier, or because they couldn't pay? If they explicitly told you that the cashier refused to serve them because of some ethical concern would you be likely to believe them, or be more likely to believe they are lying to cover up their embarrassment?
Of course you can buy Halal or Kosher, but that's a personal option that doesn't affect or inconvenience other shoppers. And of course you can take up personal availability due to private or religious reasoning with your employer, too. I'm not complaining about that. However, neither of those examples are comparable to the refusal of ringing through packaged food just because you disagree with its consumption. It's none of anyone's business.
I have no issue with Muslims arranging to work in different departments that don't involve this, but come on, not as a cashier.
And what do you mean my opinion doesn't count? I buy groceries in a country that doesn't have a state religion (or in the case of the UK, not a Muslim one). So yeah, it does. Don't make people's shopping experience a religious thing.
Oh, and, in your last paragraph you mention the refusal thing. How would that go? Seriously?
You put all your stuff through, last thing is a bottle of wine, you have no idea someone is going to act like a baby over this:
"Oh sorry, I decided I can't serve you."
"...why?"
Then what? They're going to either say they don't have to tell you why they suddenly decided you're not an appropriate customer for them, which other people will clearly hear, or that because you have alcohol, which I'm sure people will still overhear anyways. Or at least the person immediately next in line, which will surely make its rounds backwards. I work in retail and when something goes wrong up the front of the line, people talk about it with other shoppers behind them.
Of course you can buy Halal or Kosher, but that's a personal option that doesn't affect or inconvenience other shoppers. And of course you can take up personal availability due to private or religious reasoning with your employer, too. I'm not complaining about that. However, neither of those examples are comparable to the refusal of ringing through packaged food just because you disagree with its consumption. It's none of anyone's business.
In abstract what you are saying is...
If a representative has an issue with a customer (and what they consume is an issue) they have no right to refuse service.
The only way to fairly prevent such a situation arising is to enforce a policy where all representatives must serve customers regardless of any personal issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse44
I have no issue with Muslims arranging to work in different departments that don't involve this, but come on, not as a cashier.
So you never read the link, because M&S policy is that persons who have issues dealing with particular merchandise will not be assigned to those departments. This was a mistake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse44
And what do you mean my opinion doesn't count? I buy groceries in a country that doesn't have a state religion (or in the case of the UK, not a Muslim one). So yeah, it does. Don't make people's shopping experience a religious thing.
Because Marks and Spencer are a private company, their hiring policies are between them and their employees, their personnel policies are between them and their employees. If you are not an employee of M&S you have no say. If you are a shareholder you may vote to support or not support these policies, everyone else however has no say. You can choose or not to patronize M&S that's the only vote you get.
It very clearly stated that shoppers of M&S can be told to checkout at a different till in these scenarios.
2nd, sure it's a private company and they can make their own rules, but it's still ridiculous considering ultimately their goal is to serve the general public...of the UK. And of course your opinion matters if you are not between the employee and the employer since public opinion tends to influence the success of a business. So far you seem to be of the very select few who thinks this is a reasonable measure.
Not from UK but this is total BS. Live by their laws or leave.
This isn't a legal issue, but an internal company policy issue.
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Originally Posted by accencao
er.. can't they find another job?
Sure they could, indeed an employer refusing to make concessions for employee's would find their turnover to be pretty extreme.
If employers acted to employees in the way that people are saying M&S should be acting towards Muslims, the first people to start screaming blue murder probably would not be Muslims.
The thing people forget about is that to be fair all concessions by employers to employees (collectively and individually) would have to end, except for legally mandated concessions (i.e. baby changing, disabled access, etc. there's a good chance religious objection may also be added if there's enough pressure), so for instance the half day you get off early on Friday, because you work an extra hour Monday-Thursday may be a concession (unless it's in your contract), flextime almost always is discretionary (it's always underwritten as may be withdrawn at any time for any reason without notice), complimentary beverages are a concession. Emergency days (unless they're contractually agreed upon) are a concession, there is no such thing as an emergency day for bad weather, or family illness, contractually (if it's not in the contract) if you do not show for work at the agreed upon time you can be summarily terminated for dereliction, you're not because employers give their employee the concession that unless they have no paid time off, or are clearly abusing emergency days, they're a cost of doing business.
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Originally Posted by accencao
We're not an Islamic country, so why not work in the clothes MandS section? unless polyester has pig sinue in it or something...
Here's a paragraph explaining M&S policy...
"The retailer said it usually tried to assign "suitable roles" to staff who could not handle certain items because of their religious beliefs."
Sounds reasonable to me in general, I don't want someone who has a hyperactive sweat gland issue and chronic halitosis to be a cashier either, and I don't think that it's a suitable role for that person. That said I don't have any say in it, except to go elsewhere.
This thread pops up out of nowhere and the place becomes a hive of activity from posters we hardly ever see.
Why is that?
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