Metro population rankings and methodology (Philadelphia, Georgia, New York, North Carolina)

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by chiatldal

Regular people ARE THE ONES commuting. People in Forysth know they're in Metro Atlanta. People do notice the bulding, the traffic, and the fact that the population of Forsyth County GA completely exist because of Atlanta. Without Atlanta, Forysth population would not be there.

Yes commonly people tell by ACCESS to geographym they also go by integration of a geographic region. They don't ask the percentage they see and feel it. And it will be notice, Atlanta is alot wider. I don't think you understand that these place wouldn't exist if not for Atlanta. The distribute population is a direct result from urban planners sacrificing Atlanta being denser. This is why people commute so far in the first place. Whether or not you like the way Atlanta was un plan is another topic, but you got to at least respect the sprawl Atlanta created, as Atlanta created.

"But oh this has nothing to do with Atlanta just random floating suburbia that grew for no reason. '

Forsyth County GA 247 sq mi
98,407 in 2000
174,520 in 2009

New suburbia

• created because of Atlanta
• population because of Atlanta
• commute enough to be part of Atlanta

The same distance away from Detroit, communities.

• were not created because of Detroit
• their population is not because of Detroit
• they don't Commute enough to be part of Detroit

And I am not dissenting against any of this. I am not saying that Forsyth county should NOT be included in metro Atlanta. I understand why it is. It makes sense for political and economic metrrics. That is not the issue, for the umpteenth time. What I am saying is simply that if you take a similar area of Atlanta, and compare it to a similar sized area of Detroit....Detroit will have more people. ITs as simple as that.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

We did go off on a tangent, but not to off topic. In the 21st century, you can gauge a city's power and influence by it's size both in people and the area it CSA inhabits. Comparing Detroit and Atlanta is very good case study as it shows what happens when you have to metros with nearly the same population, but with vastly different economies.

I might pop in an run through it all latere, but the best way to describe the two is that the size of Greater Atlanta is reflective of it's current massively successful economy. The same thing goes for Greater Detroit, only the spark went out on it's economy a long, long time ago and what you see now is just an echo of it's former glory days. The people in the area are there because of what was, and not so much because of what is. Both cities are a direct result of the post industrial period.

Stating that once city has more people in a given area than another doesn't really mean much. You have to look at why they are there.

Metropolitan Detroit is maybe down .02 percent from its population peak. Detroit was written off after the recession of 1980-83...but it came back in the 90's. What stagnated the area was actually its success. It had such high union wages, pensions and benefits that companies could not afford to pay such rates and compete in a global economy with the like of cheap wage labor in Mexico, China and the like. However, those high union wages are gone(for new hires) as a result of this current economic crisis. Right to work states, such as Georgia, don't offer a big as advantage for cost as they once did, whiich led to business relocation and the people that followed these businesses. From 2005 to 2008....metro Detroit, as well as Michigan, was losing thousands of jobs, while places like Atlanta were still booming. Since 2008...Atlanta and Georgia has been loosing as many jobs as Detroit and Michigan. Atlanta economy was overly dependent upon housing and commerical real estate construction....two sectors of the economy that are not coming back any time soon. Since the tax credit for first time buyers has expired, housing starts have recently fell 33%. Commercial real estate is the next crisis just around the corner. AtL economy was centered on population growth, but now that population growth rates have radically slowed....so will job growth.

The one thing I am confident of is that Michigan has hit its bottom....relative to the rest of the nation. What I mean is that if the nations economy crashes....so will Michigans....along with Georgia and other places as well. However, if the economy recovers, Michigan is now lean and mean and has shed itself of high labor cost that drove businesses away. Most importantly, however, is the fact that Michigan is the Fresh Water capital of North America. The world is embarking upon a fresh water crisis. I am sure that the Western part of the US does not have enough water to sustain its current population, and certainly not the rate of population growth it has experienced, for very long into the future based upon current aquifers and under ground water table depletion. Atlanta recently had a water crisis and I doubt that the Southeaster region can sustain its level of population growth without having a fresh water crisis as well. If you look at history, great cities were always located by bodies of waters and rivers. Michigan, in the long run, will rise again and given all the economic upheaval that it has been through, it has managed to keep hold of its metro population much better than say a Pittsburg Metro has.

[DANNYY]

Originally Posted by jluke65780

Can't speak on Atlanta, but inner loop Houston contains Downtown, TMC, and Uptown. Those are the areas 3 largest and busiest CBDs (All are very important city centers within the region). Another thing is that 10,000 sqm includes water; if you exclude water, Houston is down to about 8,930.

Wait, I thought Uptown was just right outside of 610 Loop?

[blkgiraffe]

Originally Posted by OmShahi

Wait, I thought Uptown was just right outside of 610 Loop?

part of it is inside the loop, but yes it is outside the loop. However, might as well consider it inner loop considering it's right outside the 610 loop.

[chiatldal]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

And I am not dissenting against any of this. I am not saying that Forsyth county should NOT be included in metro Atlanta. I understand why it is. It makes sense for political and economic metrrics. That is not the issue, for the umpteenth time. What I am saying is simply that if you take a similar area of Atlanta, and compare it to a similar sized area of Detroit....Detroit will have more people. ITs as simple as that.

It's call density and that dosen't make a place bigger, it just makes a place denser. Metro Detroit is denser but by no means it's bigger than Atlanta.

And I'm not taking political and economic metrrics I talking about social Integration of the region. Atlanta grew wider not taller. Forsyth county is a suburban county, Atlanta made it suburban, given Forsyth county population in the first place. The population in Forsyth is the population that could of have been in Atlanta or the inter suburbs, but Atlanta grew out ward. Beside density, Forsyth county being closer to ATL proper would be no different socially then the fact it's further away. You seem to be stuck on distance.

And I disagree a little bit with waronxmas it has nothing to do with how good Atlanta's or how bad Detroit's economy have been doing over the years, It's the fact Atlanta grew out wards. Forsyth county was not 174,520 then all of the sudden Atlanta economy cause Forsyth County to join metro Atlanta. Forsyth county 50 years ago was nearly rual, Atlanta grew outward and cause the county to be 174,520 2009. Their no way you can separte the people in Forsyth from Metro Atlanta. Metaphorically Atlanta gave Forsyth birth and nurture it, it’s part of the house hold. LOL

[DANNYY]

Originally Posted by jluke65780

part of it is inside the loop, but yes it is outside the loop. However, might as well consider it inner loop considering it's right outside the 610 loop.

Yeah it's practically almost there inside the loop anyways.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by chiatldal

It's call density and that dosen't make a place bigger, it just makes a place denser. Metro Detroit is denser but by no means it's bigger than Atlanta.

And I'm not taking political and economic metrrics I talking about social Integration of the region. Atlanta grew wider not taller. Forsyth county is a suburban county, Atlanta made it suburban, given Forsyth county population in the first place. The population in Forsyth is the population that could of have been in Atlanta or the inter suburbs, but Atlanta grew out ward. Beside density, Forsyth county being closer to ATL proper would be no different socially then the fact it's further away. You seem to be stuck on distance.

And I disagree a little bit with waronxmas it has nothing to do with how good Atlanta's or how bad Detroit's economy have been doing over the years, It's the fact Atlanta grew out wards. Forsyth county was not 174,520 then all of the sudden Atlanta economy cause Forsyth County to join metro Atlanta. Forsyth county 50 years ago was nearly rual, Atlanta grew outward and cause the county to be 174,520 2009. Their no way you can separte the people in Forsyth from Metro Atlanta. Metaphorically Atlanta gave Forsyth birth and nurture it, it’s part of the house hold. LOL

I NEVER said Detroit was bigger. You appear to be taking a straw man tactic here. I simply said if you use the same land area as Atlanta...Detroit will have more people.

[adavi215]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

His point does make sense if you are basing it on communting patterns. What I am attempting to stress is that such a metric does not matter to the average joe. In fact, it just makes traffic that much more of a headache for people that does all this exurban commuting, especially in areas lke Atlanta that does not have a Grid network that can take some of the burden off the highways.

To the Average person, its all about ACCESS. A person 60 miles from Downtown Atlanta has no more access to Atlanta than a person 60 miles from Downtown Detroit, who is not part of Metropolitan Detroits population. What does it really matter that one is considered part of Metro Atlanta and one is NOT considered part of metro Detroit? It makes no difference in regards to access to population and geography. A person 60 miles outside of Detroit can drive into the city to enjoy sports, Museums, concerts, plays, shopping, jobs, ect, just like a person 60 miles outside of Atlanta does. Whether they choose to do that or not is really irrelevent in regards to having the equal access and opportunity to do so if they wanted. Just because they choose to do it more in Atlanta gets this population lumped together in Metro Atlanta. However, they have equal access to do so 60 miles outside of Detroit if they wanted to. Its feasable access.

Commuting to work patterns are essential if not the most important reason in determing whether or not a city/county is apart of an MSA. Atlanta has a huge economic pull in its state. Atlanta just has that sort of gravity, the same way Chicago does for its state, NYC for its state, etc. I see your problem but access to cultural ammenities aren't that important when determining an MSA. Sorry bud.

[chiatldal]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

I NEVER said Detroit was bigger. You appear to be taking a straw man tactic here. I simply said if you use the same land area as Atlanta...Detroit will have more people.

Wow you accuse me for a straw man ) that would be so if you don’t have a issue with the current “ Metro population rankings and methodology” than your methodology seems to be base of density, so acutally you are.

There's also this

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

When I am in places like Atlanta, they look huge! You can drive through the metro area for an hour. However, they have much lower population densities. They take up way more space as a result of that and as a result one would assume that they are way more populated, but that is really not the case. There are really no minor metro areas of any size near places like Atlanta, so everyone has to commute to Atlanta for work and they get lumped in the metro population because of these commute patters.

There doesn’t have to be any large metro in the south at all. It's not mandatory that commuters get clump anywhere because there doesn't even have to be a population. Atlanta didn’t still commuters Atlanta literally put the commuters there. With out Detroit, Flint population will still exist. With out Atlanta.. Cherokee County, Georgia population 215,084 and etc wouldn't even exist today. Atlanta didn’t grew that far out because there were no competitors “that would just make a Metroplex anyway”. Density is misleading in representing places that grew out wards. The size of metro Atlanta represent how far Atlanta grew outwards, anything that would take away from Atlanta size is under representing what Atlanta has directly cause in population.

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by jluke65780

part of it is inside the loop, but yes it is outside the loop. However, might as well consider it inner loop considering it's right outside the 610 loop.

All these loop things confuse me, you just keep going around in circles, similar to many threads on CD