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That begs the rather obvious question of "Why did you decide to live there." I mean you do realize you live in just about the worst example of suburban sprawl and complete auto dependence, right?
Oh, yeah, I was SO here to decide to move here in 1977, years before my birth, when my grandmother bought the house. Try again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric
In a place where 95% of the population, if not more, doesn't live in the city core many of the jobs are also located in the auto-oriented sprawl. Shocker, that. Part of the job requirement is usually showing up. If you cant do that, you aren't qualified. I fail to see that is a social justice issue. Either figure out how to operate a bicycle or stop looking for jobs 20 miles away.
I have one word for you: Move. Some people like to live in sprawling autotopia. I do not begrudge them that.
Alright. You gonna give me a job that pays well enough for me to be able to AFFORD to move? I thought so.
People like y'all are great at completely missing (or, more likely, ignoring) the point. There are a lot of people who have trouble accessing jobs, services, etc because of the way our cities are built. Not everyone can afford to move to other locations, and there is the fact that here in America, few places are really walkable and bikeable and such anyway. Even if everyone that needed to COULD afford to move, there would not be enough quality urban communities to go around.
If you want to see the facts, that's fine. If you don't, that's fine too. But anyone who has a caring bone in their body knows the issue when there are millions of people made into an underclass because so many jobs are out of reach, transit sucks where they are, services are hard to get to, etc because cities are not generally built for people to have options other than spending a fortune on a car to drive.
I don't care about people who like it in such sprawling "autotopias" (as you call them). If others are jacked up because of something, it does not need to exist.
Last edited by Dark Serge; 09-05-2011 at 07:57 PM..
Oh, yeah, I was SO here to decide to move here in 1977, years before my birth, when my grandmother bought the house. Try again.
Alright. You gonna give me a job that pays well enough for me to be able to AFFORD to move? I thought so.
People like y'all are great at completely missing (or, more likely, ignoring) the point. There are a lot of people who have trouble accessing jobs, services, etc because of the way our cities are built. Not everyone can afford to move to other locations, and there is the fact that here in America, few places are really walkable and bikeable and such anyway. Even if everyone that needed to COULD afford to move, there would not be enough quality urban communities to go around.
If you want to see the facts, that's fine. If you don't, that's fine too. But anyone who has a caring bone in their body knows the issue when there are millions of people made into an underclass because so many jobs are out of reach, transit sucks where they are, services are hard to get to, etc because cities are not generally built for people to have options other than spending a fortune on a car to drive.
I don't care about people who like it in such sprawling "autotopias" (as you call them). If others are jacked up because of something, it does not need to exist.
Tried to rep you via my ipod but not sure if it worked, but this is spot on.
Quote:
In a place where 95% of the population, if not more, doesn't live in the city core many of the jobs are also located in the auto-oriented sprawl. Shocker, that. Part of the job requirement is usually showing up. If you cant do that, you aren't qualified. I fail to see that is a social justice issue. Either figure out how to operate a bicycle or stop looking for jobs 20 miles away.
I have one word for you: Move. Some people like to live in sprawling autotopia. I do not begrudge them that.
Malloric, this just does not make sense to me. What if someone (not you, obviously, because you can choose how you want to travel, apparently) has a job that they enjoy and are highly qualified for, but they can't afford a car. They use two buses and a train to get to work, because where they live does not have that type of business in their neighborhood. It's not 20 miles away, but the way the transit network is designed, they have to travel further than necessary. They don't want to ride a bicycle because of the way motorists behave toward cyclists. They don't want to move because their family has lived in that neighborhood for generations, and they couldn't afford to live closer to work anyway, because the housing in that neighborhood is too expensive. They don't mind the long commute.
Unfortunately, because the transit system is underfunded - a problem which is endemic across the US - one of their bus routes is cut because it does not perform well. This person's neighborhood is now like an island, without any way to get to their job any longer.
So this person is now less qualified for their job that they have been doing well with for a while simply because public transit is seen as a lower class burden in this country rather than something for the public good?
I don't care about people who like it in such sprawling "autotopias" (as you call them). If others are jacked up because of something, it does not need to exist.
Of course they don't need to exist. I mean, you do realize the reason that they do, right? Because people were getting "jacked up" in walkable, city neighborhoods by high prices, congestion, crime... all those city things people escaped to the suburbs and build calm, peaceful, residential-only-by-design places to live. Ah, how calming to have for your neighbor not a laundromat or perpetual smell of the greasy restaurant down the street.
I've lived in a few walkable neighborhoods - Belltown and a block off the Pike/Pine corridor in Capitol Hill in Seattle, the Tenderloin in San Francisco, Zizkov in Prague. I like them for what they are, but they can get extremely aggravating. The homeless, the prostitutes and crack dealers conducting business in the alley your window looks down, the constant noise, dirt, garbage, and human excrement, the price of rent. Capitol Hill and Zizkov were better, but don't kid yourself that it wasn't loud and obnoxious. It's impossible to park a car without paying $200 or more a month for something that just sits there. That was fine at the time, but with my job now I have to have a car, at least until they invent transit that covers the rural areas in four counties. That's people getting "jacked up" and moving.
But you don't care about that. All you care about is that the suburb you choose to continue to live in isn't your romantic picture of a "quality urban community." Guess what? They're expensive and most people can't afford to live in them. I lived in the Tenderloin, not Russian or Nob Hill; the lower part of Capitol Hill not the upper or Queen Anne; Zizkov and not Vinohrady. In all but Capitol Hill and the Tenderloin I had roommates, and in the I lived in older, run down 400 square foot studios.
Regardless of that, your neighborhood is not going to become walkable at least not in a short time frame and probably not ever. That's just reality from my cold, rational bones. It's much easier to change you than change the neighborhood. Move or learn how to survive in the neighborhood you are in. Bicycles are good, and no most people don't have dedicated bike lanes with curbs to keep the cars out. They just make do with what they have available to them which is often less than ideal.
Of course they don't need to exist. I mean, you do realize the reason that they do, right? Because people were getting "jacked up" in walkable, city neighborhoods by high prices, congestion, crime... all those city things people escaped to the suburbs and build calm, peaceful, residential-only-by-design places to live. Ah, how calming to have for your neighbor not a laundromat or perpetual smell of the greasy restaurant down the street.
I've lived in a few walkable neighborhoods - Belltown and a block off the Pike/Pine corridor in Capitol Hill in Seattle, the Tenderloin in San Francisco, Zizkov in Prague. I like them for what they are, but they can get extremely aggravating. The homeless, the prostitutes and crack dealers conducting business in the alley your window looks down, the constant noise, dirt, garbage, and human excrement, the price of rent. Capitol Hill and Zizkov were better, but don't kid yourself that it wasn't loud and obnoxious. It's impossible to park a car without paying $200 or more a month for something that just sits there. That was fine at the time, but with my job now I have to have a car, at least until they invent transit that covers the rural areas in four counties. That's people getting "jacked up" and moving.
But you don't care about that. All you care about is that the suburb you choose to continue to live in isn't your romantic picture of a "quality urban community." Guess what? They're expensive and most people can't afford to live in them. I lived in the Tenderloin, not Russian or Nob Hill; the lower part of Capitol Hill not the upper or Queen Anne; Zizkov and not Vinohrady. In all but Capitol Hill and the Tenderloin I had roommates, and in the I lived in older, run down 400 square foot studios.
Regardless of that, your neighborhood is not going to become walkable at least not in a short time frame and probably not ever. That's just reality from my cold, rational bones. It's much easier to change you than change the neighborhood. Move or learn how to survive in the neighborhood you are in. Bicycles are good, and no most people don't have dedicated bike lanes with curbs to keep the cars out. They just make do with what they have available to them which is often less than ideal.
Okay. Time to go point by point with this truckload.
1. Congestion? Hoo boy. Look at Central Expressway, LBJ, 121, etc here in the DFW Metroplex during the morning rush hour. Resembles parking lots a lot of the time, eh? It's all them people commuting from them suburban areas. So don't even TRY to paint congestion as an urban only thing.
2. It's very obvious that you ain't even paying attention. Why? Because you STILL don't get that (A) I did NOT choose to live here, and it is NOT my "choice" to stay here, it is my circumstance to stay here. I do not make enough to be ABLE to move. Ain't that a shocker, that there are people who can't afford to just up and move anywhere they want?
and (B) I do not live in a suburb. This is the supposed urban core of Fort Worth, that happens to be built like a suburb. I feel that it is inappropriate for a location within a rock's throw of the downtown of a major city to be built like a sprawling suburb. I ain't sayin' there should be high rises here, but the "streetcar suburb" style would be a drastic improvement.
To be honest, however, I actually quite like the area of the city in which I reside. I just feel that it could be improved upon greatly.
1. Learn definition of congestion. Some people like having the big house, the big back yard with swimming pool, the quiet neighborhoods without hundreds of people going by every hour. Anything else is congested.
2. Are you 16? If not, you chose to live there.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it must be a duck.
I define "congestion" as what happens to my nose when there is a high pollen count. The term "congested" gets tossed around when discussing cities sometimes, but I'm not sure what it means. Malloric, is there a formal definition of "congestion" in this context? I'm not aware of it.
I've lived in a few walkable neighborhoods - Belltown and a block off the Pike/Pine corridor in Capitol Hill in Seattle, the Tenderloin in San Francisco, Zizkov in Prague. I like them for what they are, but they can get extremely aggravating. The homeless, the prostitutes and crack dealers conducting business in the alley your window looks down, the constant noise, dirt, garbage, and human excrement, the price of rent. Capitol Hill and Zizkov were better, but don't kid yourself that it wasn't loud and obnoxious. It's impossible to park a car without paying $200 or more a month for something that just sits there. That was fine at the time, but with my job now I have to have a car, at least until they invent transit that covers the rural areas in four counties. That's people getting "jacked up" and moving.
I live in a walkable neighborhood in Oakland that is pretty well-served by transit. There are a few homeless people on the commercial street (maybe 3-5) pan-handling during business hours. There isn't a huge trash issue or anything else. In fact, the average person would think my neighborhood is pretty good. People walk around, have parking spaces, some people even have yards. If you happen to not drive, you can reach most amenities easily.
Denser, walkable neighborhoods do not have to be like the Tenderloin to be successful. There are many models that work.
Lord have mercy. I know you won't listen to this, because you've ignored the two other times I've said something similar, but I will say this just to make it part of the record for this thread: when you are broke and can't find a job, therefore not being able to AFFORD to move (along with other limiting circumstances), staying at your parents' house (or, in my case, my grandmother's) is NOT a choice.
It's as one of my cousins says: right-wingers will tell someone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" when they ain't even got shoes!
1. Learn definition of congestion. Some people like having the big house, the big back yard with swimming pool, the quiet neighborhoods without hundreds of people going by every hour. Anything else is congested.
You may have a different definition of congestion, but I don't understand how a highway cannot be considered "congested" if there are tons of cars parked and in jams. You, and others, can enjoy the big house, big backyard with swimming pool, etc., but all you're saying is that you don't like living in a dense environment. That's fine, but you can't say there aren't different forms of congestion living in the burbs vs. the city. You may just be able to better deal with "traffic congestion" vs. "sidewalk congestion".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric
2. Are you 16? If not, you chose to live there.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it must be a duck.
So, if you got laid off from your job tomorrow, couldn't find another job and didn't like where you lived, would you just up and move? I think the question is not about age, but about financial ability alongside health-related factors, family heritage (maybe he/she lives in a house that has been handed down many years, etc.) and personal choice. In any event, I don't see how wanting more choices for transportation should be an attack on whether someone continues to live in a place.
To be honest, I'm searching for a new contract, I live 2 miles from downtown and there's minimal bus service. Also, most higher-paying jobs (like the one I have now) are all way out in the burbs. I want to increase my quality of life and start to bike to work or take the bus, and I will likely have to take a decrease in pay if I want to. This is because there is no bus service to the burbs where the jobs have moved and I personally can't wait till I move to someplace where I can live the way I want. That all being said, my wife and I make good money, but we can't just up and move tomorrow because we want to; and that in no way invalidates the problem of transportation in my city.
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