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My buddy who is a city planner tells me that people in Albuquerque where hostile to tall buildings and people where strong for private property rights than government telling what they can or cannot build .The city zoning laws are more loose in Albuquerque .
I was wondering if other sun belt cities are like this especially Phoenix ? Do to the flat spread out look ?
You can tell by looking at the pictures these areas of Phoenix are in the old area of the city and look urban . It is low density built environment but the areas looks urban than the typical post ww2 suburbs.
But what is strange is I have not seen this built environment .I will like more information on this built environment has it looks urban than the post ww2 suburb.
Also note this built environment is very alien to cities in Canada especially the east coast in Canada
I don't understand Phoenix contradicts every thing you read in school books by ( post ww2 suburbs standards ) so much is on a grid system and even areas well away from the down town area is on the grid system and areas not on the grid system is on a modfiied grid system .
The supper blocks in Phoenix is very very small where most standards are 1.6 KM
Even some areas in LA is not has good has Phoenix the street do to street hierarchy. Why are the city blocks in Phoenix so short and urban like .The side-walk at the street where most post ww2 suburbs the side-walk pulled back or no side-walk.
For city population of 100,000 by 1950 I'm very very very super shocked how urban Phoenix is even the fact it is low density sprawl it looks very urban than the typical post ww2 stuff.
I thought Albuquerque was hard to understand it makes all those text books you read go out the window by post ww2 standards!!
To me the build patterns looks like a transition from walking to car use than the classic text book before ww2 very bad for driving and very good for walking and after ww2 very good for driving and very bad for walking.
Or like the built environment that you see in small towns . May be the city planners of Phoenix tried to make a big city look like a very big town in feel and look.Where towns seem to have this kinda of loook.
I do not understand these built environment that look like transition from walking to car use like alot of the sun belt cities.I will like more information on this built environment and understanding this .
Note I had more more pictures around the down town area but I'm having some problems with google street view.
The streets and highways that allow low-density development are exactly the result of government telling people what they can and cannot build. Folks just tend to get deluded that roads are the product of free-market capitalism, they just can't remember the name of the company that runs the highways right now. Government policies regarding the building of highways and wide, broad streets have a profound effect on the built environment.
When you find parts of Western cities that have a more traditional urban pattern--short blocks, narrower streets, street-facing retail and mixed use--you have generally found the older part of the city, generally the part built before World War II. Generally these parts of town will still retain traditional urban features like these, although in some cases they have been knocked down as the result of urban renewal, or altered to suit the needs of the automobile.
The era before World War II wasn't "very bad for driving"--it was generally fine for driving, but there were fewer cars, and in the southwest, a whole lot fewer people. There were also other alternatives: most cities over 5000-10,000 people had a streetcar system. And where you found streetcars, you found a very different urban form than the one found in the postwar, highway/broad boulevard era: dense (but generally low-rise) mixed use close to the streetcar line, with declining densities of neighborhood/residential use within 1/4-1/2 mile of the line. And yes, both Phoenix and Albuquerque had streetcars!
The streets and highways that allow low-density development are exactly the result of government telling people what they can and cannot build. Folks just tend to get deluded that roads are the product of free-market capitalism, they just can't remember the name of the company that runs the highways right now. Government policies regarding the building of highways and wide, broad streets have a profound effect on the built environment.
When you find parts of Western cities that have a more traditional urban pattern--short blocks, narrower streets, street-facing retail and mixed use--you have generally found the older part of the city, generally the part built before World War II. Generally these parts of town will still retain traditional urban features like these, although in some cases they have been knocked down as the result of urban renewal, or altered to suit the needs of the automobile.
The era before World War II wasn't "very bad for driving"--it was generally fine for driving, but there were fewer cars, and in the southwest, a whole lot fewer people. There were also other alternatives: most cities over 5000-10,000 people had a streetcar system. And where you found streetcars, you found a very different urban form than the one found in the postwar, highway/broad boulevard era: dense (but generally low-rise) mixed use close to the streetcar line, with declining densities of neighborhood/residential use within 1/4-1/2 mile of the line. And yes, both Phoenix and Albuquerque had streetcars!
The city has zoning laws that would say what can or cannot be built if it is mixed use or how back should a building be and the same with side-walk.
Those areas of Phoenix do not have mix use but the short blocks, narrower streets,grid system, street-facing retail .
This built environment by reading by school text books should not have happen in the 50's that alone the 60's do to in general WWII marks the turning point when builders stopped building short blocks, narrower streets ,grid system, street-facing retail and street hierarchy started .
I wonder if in the 40's or 30's they build the streets and sidewalks way before anyone built any thing.A buddy who is a city planner say that Las Vegas did the same thing built the streets and sidewalks way before the area was built.
This may explain why the street network is very urban looking and anti suburb looking.The short blocks, narrower streets ,grid system, street-facing retail .
Cities didn't go around demolishing existing buildings that didn't comply with new zoning laws--they applied to new buildings and new neighborhoods. So in many cities, and in areas originally built outside the city limits and later annexed into the city, and things built without permits or otherwise loopholing regulations, you'll find plenty of things that don't comply with zoning codes.
I'm having a lot of difficulty figuring out exactly what questions you are trying to ask, sweat209...maybe just language differences?
Cities didn't go around demolishing existing buildings that didn't comply with new zoning laws--they applied to new buildings and new neighborhoods. So in many cities, and in areas originally built outside the city limits and later annexed into the city, and things built without permits or otherwise loopholing regulations, you'll find plenty of things that don't comply with zoning codes.
I'm having a lot of difficulty figuring out exactly what questions you are trying to ask, sweat209...maybe just language differences?
What I'm confused is this built environment .I never seen this built environment .At least not here in Toronto area.
Same with this built environment of Albuquerque .
But what I do not understand why does Phoenix look so urban ? I can see if Phoenix had population 500,000 or more by the year 1950 but by the year 1950 only 106,000 people that is nothing that is a very small city,
So I will say it again why are the city blocks in Phoenix so short and urban like and so much of the city on a grid system or a modfiied grid system with 95% or more of the city growth post ww2.
Phoenix population 1900 5,544
Phoenix population 1920 29,053
Phoenix population 1940 65,414
Phoenix population 1950 106,818
Phoenix population 1960 439,170
Phoenix population 2010 1,445,632
I don't find those pictures very alien. Outside of the city cores, that's what much of suburban Toronto, Calgary, Winnipeg, Edmonton, and Vancouver look like. Some smaller, newer cities cities like Kelowna seem to be entirely made of that stuff, often ( as another poster has mentioned ), minus the sidewalks.
Phoenix is hardly my ideal town, but I really haven't experienced the difference people mention between Canadian and American city planning. They're both countries blighted with a lot of wasteful sprawl.
What I'm confused is this built environment .I never seen this built environment .At least not here in Toronto area.
Same with this built environment of Albuquerque .
But what I do not understand why does Phoenix look so urban ? I can see if Phoenix had population 500,000 or more by the year 1950 but by the year 1950 only 106,000 people that is nothing that is a very small city,
So I will say it again why are the city blocks in Phoenix so short and urban like and so much of the city on a grid system or a modfiied grid system with 95% or more of the city growth post ww2.
Phoenix population 1900 5,544
Phoenix population 1920 29,053
Phoenix population 1940 65,414
Phoenix population 1950 106,818
Phoenix population 1960 439,170
Phoenix population 2010 1,445,632
If any thing 95% of the city of Phoenix should look suburb than urban.
Population of 100,000 was pretty big for a southwestern city of that era--and you find that sort of grid pattern in towns as small as a few hundred. Generally that city grid was laid out well in advance of the population, and the people filled in the spaces later. Like a lot of western cities, they exploded in population after World War II.
Also, Phoenix had a streetcar until 1948--streetcars are like fertilizer for cities. They encouraged dense, walkable growth around the streetcar lines.
But none of the photos you have showed look particularly urban to me: single-story auto-centric businesses and single-family homes. That's a suburban area, even if it was built out using already laid out rectangular blocks.
Urban form is affected by climate and geography: Phoenix is a very different place than Toronto, so both produce cities of different shape.
But none of the photos you have showed look particularly urban to me: single-story auto-centric businesses and single-family homes. That's a suburban area, even if it was built out using already laid out rectangular blocks.
Urban form is affected by climate and geography: Phoenix is a very different place than Toronto, so both produce cities of different shape.
The satellite view looks a bit more urban to me since I don't see anywhere with much space between the buildings or trees. Perhaps since the climate can't support greenery there's less incentive to spread out development?
The streetviews don't look particularly urban to me at all.
The satellite view looks a bit more urban to me since I don't see anywhere with much space between the buildings or trees. Perhaps since the climate can't support greenery there's less incentive to spread out development?
The streetviews don't look particularly urban to me at all.
It's the Southwest, there weren't any trees there before people arrived, and little water is there to support trees. A verdant tree-lined street in Phoenix is as oddball as front-yard cacti would be in Ottawa, and bringing water to a city like Phoenix unavoidably means taking it from somewhere else that was probably using it. In fact, the history of most western cities is based on control of water more than any other resource.
The satellite view looks a bit more urban to me since I don't see anywhere with much space between the buildings or trees. Perhaps since the climate can't support greenery there's less incentive to spread out development?
The streetviews don't look particularly urban to me at all.
Here is area in Phoenix
Here is suburb in Toronto.
Here is some industrial zoning in Phoenix .
Here is some industrial zoning in Toronto.
When you got short blocks, narrower streets ,grid system, street-facing retail and side-walk at the stree it is urban .
The suburbs are more pulled back and are anti-short blocks, narrower streets ,grid system.
The areas does not connect do other areas do to street hierarchy.The suburbs are also about more green and space.
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