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I'm doubtful. Most nations near our level of wealth have far less poverty and every single one of them has less violence. We have the highest murder rate in industrialized nations, with most of it occuring in inner cities. The idea that the poor live in the city and the wealthy live 30 miles away is kind of flip-flopped from the way it is in most European cities, as I understand it (though I've never been to Europe).
So yeah, the violence and poverty might match some South American or African capitals, but in a field of our peers, we are an outlier.
USA! USA!
You're right, in Europe the poor people tend to live out in the country as farmers (generally on the family farm that has been owned by their ancestors for centuries). That's also kind of the reason they are poor, all they do is farm just enough so they have food and shelter to survive, but they do little else to earn any income. If they try to make it big by going into the cities but fail, then they just go back to their farms where they are at least taken care of.
Over here, we never really had family farms like that. Instead we had large plantations that relied on slave labor. Well, the slaves didn't own the farms, so when that ended, they had no where to go except into the cities. If they (or other poor people, since I'm not trying to imply only former slaves are the poor people here) don't make it big here, they don't have a family farm to fall back to, so they stay in the cities and resort to crime to get by.
This is the same all over the "New World" too, which is why you see similar situations in Brazil and whatnot. There are just a lot of people with nowhere to go, so they go to the cities. In Europe, that population is much smaller because most everyone there has at least a distant relative who is on a farm somewhere that they could go to if they were really desperate.
I'm doubtful. Most nations near our level of wealth have far less poverty and every single one of them has less violence. We have the highest murder rate in industrialized nations, with most of it occuring in inner cities. The idea that the poor live in the city and the wealthy live 30 miles away is kind of flip-flopped from the way it is in most European cities, as I understand it (though I've never been to Europe).
So yeah, the violence and poverty might match some South American or African capitals, but in a field of our peers, we are an outlier.
Yes, I don't other developed nations have anywhere near the extreme poverty and violent crime levels found in American cities, with a few exceptions. London measures its murder rate per million and has some inner city deprivation (Inner London is the wealthiest district in the UK, but has a fairly high poverty rate) but extreme no go areas are limited. London did have riots recently, and I had a friend who was in the London district where riots started and spent the night holed up in a store. The underclass in American cities appears to have given up on rioting.
It's a bit more complicated than "the rich live in center cities and the poor live on the outskirts". The poor aren't living in low density single family districts, those districts in Europe are typically well-off. The poor often live in dense blocks outside of the city center. French cities typically house the poor in a ring out of the center city often in high rise blocks. For Paris, there's a bit of confusion because the city limits are tiny. Paris' density is similar, maybe slightly less than NYC, but the city limits cover a much smaller area than NYC. The "inner suburbs" the poor live in are equivalent to parts of Brooklyn or Queens — and only some inner suburbs are poor. The poor areas of Paris have the worst public transportation. Many European center cities don't have too many children — Amsterdam felt a bit like San Francisco; well-off, hip and liberal with lots of either single, childless well-to-do couples or less well off immigrants. The trend of few children in the city center is common in the rest of Europe as well.
British cities have the most "American" income distributions, with some rather poor inner cities and particularly in the North, though they all have showed very impressive population gains in the last decade. London has the most New York-like income distribution — wealthy or gentrifying center, poorer inner ring, middle-class outer ring, but unlike the wealthiest neighborhoods arent as much concentrated towards the center. At one time I assumed New York / London income distributions were universals.
Either way, I don't think Canadian or European cities have the levels of deprivation or gun violence found in parts of US cities. Here's a sad story from one of the worst parts of NYC.
Is the US a peer to Europe? Perhaps it's more a peer of Latin America. Both the US and Latin America are settler states with either a large impoverished native population or a formerly enslaved and then discriminated section of society. The US south in some ways was a less extreme version of aparthied South Africa, and South Africa has extremely high crime rates.
If they (or other poor people, since I'm not trying to imply only former slaves are the poor people here) don't make it big here, they don't have a family farm to fall back to, so they stay in the cities and resort to crime to get by. .
You made some good points, but this is about 150 years of history oversimplified.
Is the US a peer to Europe? Perhaps it's more a peer of Latin America. Both the US and Latin America are settler states with either a large impoverished native population or a formerly enslaved and then discriminated section of society. The US south in some ways was a less extreme version of aparthied South Africa, and South Africa has extremely high crime rates.
As income inequality grows, it certainly becomes a more apt comparison.
Thanks for your insight on European cities, I'm a total rube when it comes to that continent.
There is no one US model. Old Money, Establishment-types never left Boston; Beacon Hill and the Back Bay have always been affluent. You could say it’s more European in that regard.
In some western cities, like LA, the rich never lived in the heart of the city. They preferred the hills on the periphery or smaller, satellite cities like Pasadena.
One could argue that a more classic American example is Philadelphia, where the rich started leaving even before “white flight.” Consequently Center City, while still very grand, is comparatively poor.
Nonetheless, none of these can be compared to Latin America, which has bona fide shantytowns. No neighborhood in New York or Detroit, no matter how ghetto, can compare with a favela in Rio.
As income inequality grows, it certainly becomes a more apt comparison.
I skimmed through Rio de Janeiro on google streetview. In some not so good areas, not only did I find very tall fences, some were topped by barbed wire. Bulletproof glass is a proof is a popular option on nicer cars. When you're stuck in traffic in hourlong jams, extra protection against gun wielding muggers is a plus. The elite have started to commute by helicopter and avoid the traffic and the underclass.
Don't think any American city has gone that far, though Americans can separate themselves from the poor easier with the lower densities.
DC is a bit unusual compared to many other capitals, as for most of its history it was a political capital; cultural and economic centers were elsewhere. It was never even #2 or #3 and isn't really for its region (NYC functions more as a "capital" for the northeast); unless DC is southern rather than northeastern. If it is southern, I assume it's a bit of an outlier for the south. Australia, Canada and Brazil follow the American pattern of capital placement.
Speaking of subways, this short little article was fun:
As income inequality grows, it certainly becomes a more apt comparison.
Thanks for your insight on European cities, I'm a total rube when it comes to that continent.
Well, I think the guy was a little off about European cities! It's not that the poor only live in the country, Europe has poor people in the cities to, especially old industrial cities. I think what the earlier poster meant by "it's the opposite in Europe" is that the poorer areas in European cities are often the suburbs. The suburbs of Paris, for example, or Prague, are the poorer areas, while the city centres are wealthy. In some cities, like London, the farthest out suburbs are sometimes quite nice, but the inner ring is still poorer.
Either way, I don't think Canadian or European cities have the levels of deprivation or gun violence found in parts of US cities. Here's a sad story from one of the worst parts of NYC.
This French visitor actually found Parisian ghettos worse than American ones, or at least some Parisian housing projects vs NYC housing projects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchy93
overall experience was great, it's always interesting to see all the kind of neighborhoods a big city like NY has to offer.
We didn't face any bad experience, everybody we talked to was actually friendly and some were even amused that french tourists venture in their hood. Dudes hanging in front of the buildings were more surprised to see 3 french kids in the projects than actually menacing.
The only time it got a lil more tense was on Bergen st in BK inside Kingsborough projects, we got a few stares who clearly meant "you don't belong there, gtfo" lol but other than that everything was cool, never felt threatened, 90% of the time people were just noticing our presence, looked surprised and then just walked away minding their business. All the projects we passed by looked more or less rough but, no offense to anyone, I could definitely take you to some pj's north/east of Paris suburbs where I feel way more threatened than any NY project I've been to.
Still, New York City has a higher murder rate, and I'd assume violent crime as well. And many American cities are far worse than New York City.
(that quote is from a thread of photos of housing projects)
The quoted poster — frenchy93 is from Saint-denis, an inner suburb of Paris. Wikipedia claims it has the highest crime rate in France and its population is mostly North African immigrants. History parallels many declining American cities, or some inner-ring industrial northeastern cities (like in North Jersey). Voted left-wing, like some working-class parts of NYC. Declined in the 70s and 80s with industry closing. Grew back a bit with an increase of poorer immigrants. Population density is similar to some North Jersey cities. But it has a nice looking pedestrianized street
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