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These older, denser cities were built up before society became auto-centric.
They also were built up organically over time without excessive zoning regulations. Most buildings in NYC would be illegal to build today. I wonder how a city today would develop organically.
The truth is, alot of the great cities people are mentioning here like New York and SF became the sort of cities they are because of an older era when there were less restrictions on what people could build, when there was a freer real estate development market. That said, ideological rules like "no zoning ever" or "we always need zoning to protect urbanism and the environment" are rarely a good idea. In a certain time, in a certain place, you always end up making the wrong call by adhering to your dogma. I wish my city (Vancouver, BC) would adopt a more Houston style approach. We have only a little original urbanism from that older, freer time and what we have is all developed now. Micromanaged development set in place by unimaginative politicians hounded by NIMBYs has destroyed this city. It's become a no-fun, sterile, cramped, unaffordable playground for the rich and is everything wrong with today's urban planning. We need freedom. We need to be allowed to develop what the market demands, when it demands it, and we need to be able to take chances, make mistakes, and let small groups and individuals, not just implacable governments and enormous developers, do new and interesting things. This city is choking to death on its own restrictions and needs to stop favouring the existing homeowners at the expense of the class that aspires to own. Too much consulting with communities for years and years and years. Sometimes, a community needs to deal with competition and stop stifling the future, because the future comes for us all just the same.
If we loosened restrictions now, the city would emerge a great one, but the government deserves some credit for that. With all the bad I spoke of, they also led the way towards a better philosophy towards city building. Developers and the people now have a culture and experience with an urban, sustainable way of life, and if were freed would build it everywhere. The city deserves credit for leading the way on that, and it wouldn't have been possible without powers. So, there's a balance to be struck. Lead the way, preserve when you should, allow creative destruction when you should. A very difficult balance to strike. We failed on allowing the creative destruction, others failed on preservation, others still on leading the way forward. One day, someone will strike it right again.
How does anyone here disagree with this? This is probably the most informative and least biased post I've seen on this forum in a long time. What are we still arguing about?
They also were built up organically over time without excessive zoning regulations. Most buildings in NYC would be illegal to build today. I wonder how a city today would develop organically.
Yeah, those tenements would certainly be illegal to build today. The H with zoning! The H with building codes. No more water and sewage treatment. Bring back cholera and typhoid, also TB from overcrowding. LET THE MARKET DECIDE! (Brought to you by the Libertarian Party, US)
Yeah, those tenements would certainly be illegal to build today. The H with zoning! The H with building codes. No more water and sewage treatment. Bring back cholera and typhoid, also TB from overcrowding. LET THE MARKET DECIDE! (Brought to you by the Libertarian Party, US)
Are there a lot of buildings in NYC, today, without water and sewage treatment? Is TB a problem in NYC, today?
It seemed obvious to me that sstsunami55 was talking about the NYC of today.
Last edited by JR_C; 07-22-2016 at 08:11 AM..
Reason: add
Yeah, those tenements would certainly be illegal to build today. The H with zoning! The H with building codes. No more water and sewage treatment. Bring back cholera and typhoid. LET THE MARKET DECIDE! (Brought to you by the Libertarian Party, US)
Many of those tenements still exist, for decently high rents. They all have water and sewage treatment* They're not, umm, great housing stock, but in a city with high housing demand it's silly to declare much of the existing housing stock not to code. Most of the time the existing housing stock is non-compliant because it's too dense / too high lot coverage, not health safety.
*or internet. Tenement dweller using the fire escape with laptop
By that logic, any old low-density housing built pre-plumbing would be an issue. But they're usually not; those ones fit the density restrictions and they of course have plumbing today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR_C
Are there a lot of buildings in NYC, today, without water and sewage treatment? Is TB a problem in NYC, today?
Umm, no. And I've looked at old census tables of % households with complete plumbing facilities. NYC was high for the nation even compared to other big cities. Partly obvious necessity given the density.
Are there a lot of buildings in NYC, today, without water and sewage treatment? Is TB a problem in NYC, today?
It seemed obvious to me that sstsunami55 was talking about the NYC of today.
But it got that way on the backs of the people who lived in those tenements, cold water flats, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
Many of those tenements still exist, for decently high rents. They all have water and sewage treatment* They're not, umm, great housing stock, but in a city with high housing demand it's silly to declare much of the existing housing stock not to code. Most of the time the existing housing stock is non-compliant because it's too dense / too high lot coverage, not health safety.
*or internet. Tenement dweller using the fire escape with laptop
Umm, no. And I've looked at old census tables of % households with complete plumbing facilities. NYC was high for the nation even compared to other big cities. Partly obvious necessity given the density.
That picture doesn't look like a tenement. It looks like dumpy, high density housing. Many tenements were 8-10 people to a room, interior rooms with no means of escape in case of fire (I see you noted the fire escape), shared bathrooms, cold water only, etc. Too dense can be a health/safety problem in the case of fire or other catastrophe requiring the building to be evacuated.
That picture doesn't look like a tenement. It looks like dumpy, high density housing. Many tenements were 8-10 people to a room, interior rooms with no means of escape in case of fire (I see you noted the fire escape), shared bathrooms, cold water only, etc. Too dense can be a health/safety problem in the case of fire or other catastrophe requiring the building to be evacuated.
By the building style, it was likely built as a tenement [checked building date: 1900 or earlier, so almost certainly]. Obviously, the level of crowding and amenities aren't the same as it was 100 years ago. I wouldn't call it dumpy-looking, but I'm sure the layout isn't great inside.
Well, not all buildings built before 1900 in NY were tenements, were they? Here are some pictures of tenements. From the outside, yeah, it could have been.
Well, not all buildings built before 1900 in NY were tenements, were they? Here are some pictures of tenements. From the outside, yeah, it could have been.
No, but almost all in the Lower East Side were (the neighborhood it's in).
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