Urban vs. suburban vs. rural and what is considered inner city? (Baltimore, market)
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The distinction between "urban" and "suburban" is often an "I know it when I see it" kind of thing; it's hard to make an objective definition that doesn't have glaring exceptions. And there's edge cases, like the many small towns you'll find with single-family homes on postage-stamp lots.
Agreed. I had an epiphany today. On this forum, "suburban" simply means anything built after WW II according to the standards of the time, e.g. predominantly one story homes with attached garages, wider and/or curving streets instead of narrow streets on a grid, and the like. Even if it's in the city limits, if it looks like the above, it's "suburban" to many posters.
Agreed. I had an epiphany today. On this forum, "suburban" simply means anything built after WW II according to the standards of the time, e.g. predominantly one story homes with attached garages, wider and/or curving streets instead of narrow streets on a grid, and the like. Even if it's in the city limits, if it looks like the above, it's "suburban" to many posters.
More or less, yes, at least for me (excluding the one story homes; one story homes aren't the majority in the postwar suburbs I'm familiar with). City limits are rather irrelevant and misleading because they don't give information on what's inside them. At one time, I used to think of city vs suburb as going by city limits, until I learned more about places and realized they're rather disconnected by layout and form.
In any case, I think this thread discussion is almost exclusively on urban form and layout.
Agreed. I had an epiphany today. On this forum, "suburban" simply means anything built after WW II according to the standards of the time, e.g. predominantly one story homes with attached garages, wider and/or curving streets instead of narrow streets on a grid, and the like. Even if it's in the city limits, if it looks like the above, it's "suburban" to many posters.
Well, most also call the Chestnut Hill neighborhood of Philadelphia suburban, and it's both pre-war and never was a suburb (that is, it was built up after being incorporated into the city of Philadelphia). See what I mean about any definition having glaring exceptions?
Agreed. I had an epiphany today. On this forum, "suburban" simply means anything built after WW II according to the standards of the time, e.g. predominantly one story homes with attached garages, wider and/or curving streets instead of narrow streets on a grid, and the like. Even if it's in the city limits, if it looks like the above, it's "suburban" to many posters.
Does this definition include suburbs that were laid out during the 1920's but not built until after that war? I assume that the railroad suburbs built from the 1840's to the 1920's are excluded.
Well, most also call the Chestnut Hill neighborhood of Philadelphia suburban, and it's both pre-war and never was a suburb (that is, it was built up after being incorporated into the city of Philadelphia). See what I mean about any definition having glaring exceptions?
Agreed, it is hard to come up with any perfect definitions
In Chestnut Hill (Part of Philadelphia proper) you have the main street commercial district that looks like this
In many ways Ardmore is as urban if not moreso than Chestnut Hill, yet Chestnut Hill is part of Philly. Everyone in the area would consider Ardmore the burbs, and many would believe CH has a suburban feel even if in the burbs
Guess it is hard to quatify
So going on Feel based on some examples I would view
though there is less to the form, on the whole collections of population density may provide the best quantitative measure unless developed density metrics are available
More or less, yes, at least for me (excluding the one story homes; one story homes aren't the majority in the postwar suburbs I'm familiar with). City limits are rather irrelevant and misleading because they don't give information on what's inside them. At one time, I used to think of city vs suburb as going by city limits, until I learned more about places and realized they're rather disconnected by layout and form.
In any case, I think this thread discussion is almost exclusively on urban form and layout.
Well, I disagree with you, and it makes it extremely hard to even talk about the suburbs with so many definitions going around. It's also kind of "Amish" meaning what is acceptable stopped at a certain time, in this case WW II. The thread title is "Urban vs. suburban vs. rural and what is considered inner city?".
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvande55
Does this definition include suburbs that were laid out during the 1920's but not built until after that war? I assume that the railroad suburbs built from the 1840's to the 1920's are excluded.
I'm not making up these definitions; you'll have to ask the "wordsmiths" here who want "suburban" to mean anything they don't like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nybbler
Well, most also call the Chestnut Hill neighborhood of Philadelphia suburban, and it's both pre-war and never was a suburb (that is, it was built up after being incorporated into the city of Philadelphia). See what I mean about any definition having glaring exceptions?
That's why I think "in city limits" is city, period.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 06-15-2012 at 07:29 AM..
Well, I disagree with you, and it makes it extremely hard to even talk about the suburbs with so many definitions going around. The thread title is "Urban vs. suburban vs. rural and what is considered inner city?".
I know what the title is, there is nothing implying about government boundaries in the title nor in any of the posts. Note the title used urban and suburban not city and suburb.
Quote:
I'm not making up these definitions; you'll have to ask the "wordsmiths" here who want "suburban" to mean anything they don't like.
That's why I think "in city limits" is city, period.
No one's trying to make stuff up. To me, what a city a city or rather an "urban" place, is being big, busy and dense. Neighborhood X is more urban than neighborhood Y; in the reverse neighborhood Y is more suburban than neighborhood X. I've made it clear that this (and think many posters) find this the more interesting, meaningful distinction when discussing different places. What's wrong with discussing where to set this distinction?
You can go ahead and use city limits because it's simpler but a lot of times it's really wrong. Some areas outside a city may be more urban than ones inside in a city limits. Ogre made this distinction very clear:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogre
You can't always go by city limits, either, in telling about the character of a place. For example, even in an old, dense city like Boston there are small areas with a suburban look, most notably in the West Roxbury section. Occasionally on the MA board someone will point out to a person planning on moving to the Boston area and wanting some urban atmosphere that the future transplant should not dismiss such small cities close to Boston as Somerville and Cambridge, since many or most of their neighborhoods are more urban than West Roxbury, which lies within Boston's city limits.
If I was looking to move to the "city", a place like West Roxbury would be crossed off the list while Somerville and Cambridge would not.
It's more of a continuum than something you can arbitrarily cut off.
This is what I was going to say. I don't think there's any line in the sand hard distinction between the urban and suburban. It's definitely a spectrum.
I think "urbanity" is more or less defined by the intensity and efficiency of land use. That's pretty much my working definition.
I know what the title is, there is nothing implying about government boundaries in the title nor in any of the posts. Note the title used urban and suburban not city and suburb.
No one's trying to make stuff up. To me, what a city a city or rather an "urban" place, is being big, busy and dense. Neighborhood X is more urban than neighborhood Y; in the reverse neighborhood Y is more suburban than neighborhood X. I've made it clear that this (and think many posters) find this the more interesting, meaningful distinction when discussing different places. What's wrong with discussing where to set this distinction?
You can go ahead and use city limits because it's simpler but a lot of times it's really wrong. Some areas outside a city may be more urban than ones inside in a city limits. Ogre made this distinction very clear:
If I was looking to move to the "city", a place like West Roxbury would be crossed off the list while Somerville and Cambridge would not.
City limits are rather irrelevant and misleading because they don't give information on what's inside them. At one time, I used to think of city vs suburb as going by city limits, until I learned more about places and realized they're rather disconnected by layout and form.
This depends on the city. On the East Coast, city boundaries have a tighter correlation with "urbanity" because the cities had developed so much of their present form prior to post-WWII decentralization. In newer cities, the boundaries probably don't make as much sense.
And I think this has a major impact on regional identity. For example, I had no concept of a city proper until I went to the South. Someone asked me where I was from, and when I responded that I was from Philadelphia, she asked me if I was from Philadelphia "proper." That made no sense to me at the time. You're either (a) from the city or (b) you're not. But if you're from a relatively newer and more decentralized city like Atlanta, you may a call a lot of things "Atlanta" that are nowhere near the actual city limits. People down there tend to think of Marietta, Decatur, College Park, Smyrna, Alpharetta and Sandy Springs as different areas of "Atlanta" rather than suburbs.
I always find it interesting flying over the East Coast (I always get window seats). You can already tell what city you're looking at before the pilot says, "If you look to your left folks, you'll see Philadelphia." The footprint of the city is that distinct.
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