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All the boundaries, especially for high schools, are slated to go away in the next few years. At least that's the plan, although the projected costs are starting to come into focus and they're, well, enormous and way more than the original projections. All this is a result of Secondary School Reform.
If that happens, the result will be a death knell to the school system anyway. Parents who aren't allowed to transfer will simply opt for private school or move out of the county. Or they will move to the parts of the county with the best schools. The "lesser" schools will still struggle. So the solution you suggest will never be good for the overall school system. What would be better is if great options were available in all areas, and parents could rely on more than just one great high school, could rely on more than a lottery, or the babysitting transfer, or a move to a very narrowly defined area with good schools.
(aside: the politicians and the big wigs always seem to end up on the right side of the "lottery." Really? And while we are on the subject of out-of-boundary transfers, did you know that teachers and administrators can place their kids in the public school of their choice, even out-of-boundary? That's what I was told by a reliable source. And folks are harrumphing about parents who use the babysitting transfer? Again, really?)
Let's be real. Good schools need good administrators, teachers and students. Forcing parents to send their children to only the boundary school is not going to automatically make that school good. Consider that the better or more experienced teachers will want to teach at the best schools. Consider that principals want to lead the best school they can. Consider that FARMs and special ed populations are seen as the great drag-down to MSA scores. There is a lot at stake. And a few transfers is definitely not what ails PGCPS.
I have to respectfully disagree with you. I don't think the school system should eliminate transfer altogether either. I think they need to be more responsible about how they are doing it. Regardless of what is being stated about the schools, if we make the assumption that they are telling the truth (which I'm like Khemistry and think they are lying) about replicating the programs in other schools, it would be difficult to get people interested in going to other schools besides ERHS. I mean think about it, for your children if you had to choose between DuVal High School and ERHS having the same program, which would you choose? What do you think most people would choose? That's why I don't think this will ever work as long as you allow people to have so much freedom to move. We're talking about decades of a school having a reputation of being head and shoulders above the rest. That doesn't just disappear.
Sure there will be people who leave, but guess what, there will be many who don't have a choice. People who don't like those type of rules will have to suffer through the possibility of paying tuition at a private school or even at another county's school. Not sure how many have money for that. This all very well may be moot if they push for that re-organization that NBP is talking about.
BTW, as far as kids going to whatever school they want, I believe that is common in a lot of school systems not just PG. My wife stated that she had that option when she worked there. Ironically though, a lot of her co-workers didn't even send their kids to county schools and even the principal there sent her children to private school, imagine that. Clearly they see something that others may not be privy to.
I have to respectfully disagree with you. I don't think the school system should eliminate transfer altogether either. I think they need to be more responsible about how they are doing it. Regardless of what is being stated about the schools, if we make the assumption that they are telling the truth (which I'm like Khemistry and think they are lying) about replicating the programs in other schools, it would be difficult to get people interested in going to other schools besides ERHS. I mean think about it, for your children if you had to choose between DuVal High School and ERHS having the same program, which would you choose? What do you think most people would choose? That's why I don't think this will ever work as long as you allow people to have so much freedom to move. We're talking about decades of a school having a reputation of being head and shoulders above the rest. That doesn't just disappear.
Sure there will be people who leave, but guess what, there will be many who don't have a choice. People who don't like those type of rules will have to suffer through the possibility of paying tuition at a private school or even at another county's school. Not sure how many have money for that. This all very well may be moot if they push for that re-organization that NBP is talking about.
BTW, as far as kids going to whatever school they want, I believe that is common in a lot of school systems not just PG. My wife stated that she had that option when she worked there. Ironically though, a lot of her co-workers didn't even send their kids to county schools and even the principal there sent her children to private school, imagine that. Clearly they see something that others may not be privy to.
And other transfer options are common in other school systems as well, even in MoCo; there are just more options there. Parents will always try to find a way to send their children to the best schools that they can. Look at DC -- there is a citywide lottery there, right? Why should we have to clamp down in PG? I was told by a top PGCPS official once that all PG schools belong to all taxpayers. For the taxes I (and others) pay, I agree with that.
Yes, we will have to disagree on the transfer issue. Too few have the opportunity to attend the best schools in the county because there are simply too few options available. If your daughter were to attend a PG public school, would you send her to the local elementary school in the Oxon Hill/Ft. Washington area? With no qualms? Because transferring her to another school would help "kill" a system that is already broken?
Actually, I sent both of my children to our local elementary school. I gave it a chance. I tried to stay and "fight to make it better." The school sucked on many levels. I decided not to put my children through any more of that.
Good exchange here. I think what could go a long way in coming close to replicating Eleanor Roosevelt is simply having firm expectations when it comes to behavior and academic rigor.
Good exchange here. I think what could go a long way in coming close to replicating Eleanor Roosevelt is simply having firm expectations when it comes to behavior and academic rigor.
But when kids are exposed to behavioral expectations and academic rigor and the ensuing consequences when those expectations aren't met, the parents and community leaders start squawking about achievement gaps and disparities in discipline rates rather than examining what the behaviors are of the successful students.
It happens at ER too. Parents think that by depositing them at the door that the school is going to wave some sort of magical wand and "fix" their kids for them. Then, when the kid gets in trouble or fails to meet the academic expectations, they hear the crying and gnashing of teeth.
And other transfer options are common in other school systems as well, even in MoCo; there are just more options there. Parents will always try to find a way to send their children to the best schools that they can. Look at DC -- there is a citywide lottery there, right? Why should we have to clamp down in PG? I was told by a top PGCPS official once that all PG schools belong to all taxpayers. For the taxes I (and others) pay, I agree with that.
Yes, we will have to disagree on the transfer issue. Too few have the opportunity to attend the best schools in the county because there are simply too few options available. If your daughter were to attend a PG public school, would you send her to the local elementary school in the Oxon Hill/Ft. Washington area? With no qualms? Because transferring her to another school would help "kill" a system that is already broken?
Actually, I sent both of my children to our local elementary school. I gave it a chance. I tried to stay and "fight to make it better." The school sucked on many levels. I decided not to put my children through any more of that.
Let me put it like this, and this is not to sound harsh, but it would be a cold day in Hades before I sent my daughter to a PG County school. I've witnessed enough in my own experience and even in my wife's experience as a PG teacher to know that sending my child and/or future children to any of these schools would be a mistake. I look at it like this, the schools that I attended growing up (Eugene Burroughs Middle and Henry Ferguson Elementary) are a lot better than where she would have to go (Oxon Hill Elementary and Oxon Hill Middle). I simply would not do it. I look at it like taking a step back. I want my children to have opportunities that I never had, which is why I want to send them to a different school district. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe every school is bad in PG, but I just believe if I have the opportunity to school my children to better schools (which I do) then that's what I will do. There's a 0% chance of my daughter going to PG County Schools happening. Whether it happens this summer or another few months, our family is moving and schools rank among one of the top reasons.
With that said, to go along with the conversation, if I did decide to send them to a PG School , I would have to live with the decision that my wife and I made to move to the school district in which I did. I mean consider this, what about the parents that move to Greenbelt/Bowie to go to the better schools and pay the higher property value to send their kids to those schools, is it fair for them to go through that when there are people who have kids who live in places like New Carrollton, for instance, who get to have the same opportunity? One of the things I've always been told is to buy in a place with good schools around you, not just in your neighborhood because of the chance that the schools could be redistricted. Even now, where we are trying to move out in VA, there are 3 elementary schools around the neighborhoods that we are looking that rank among the top 100 or so elementary schools in the state and the middle schools are equally highly regarded. Regardless of what happens I know my children are going to good schools.
But for people here to move to a certain neighborhood and expect to transfer to a school like ERHS just completely undermines the integrity of the system. It is true that we technically pay money for all of these schools, but in order to get into special programs your child also needs to qualify by assessment, if your child doesn't, I don't see how we can justify these kids getting the same opportunities as the ones who have worked hard to deserve this or for the parents who pay the extra money to live in that particular area. Something just seems cheap about that. I believe if you have a legitimate reason to transfer (i.e. bullying, acceptance in program) then you deserve that chance. But if you are doing it just because, then it just compromises the integrity of the school system, in my opinion. I know we don't see eye-to-eye on this, but that's just my thoughts.
I concur with EdwardA. This is a great exchange of thought and this discussion certainly exceeds my expectations. It is clear that we are at a point when a thread is started about PG County Public Schools, it no longer produces the deluge of "PG County kids are thugs and neither they or their parents care about education so nothing can be done so don't bother to try" comments. It would seem that PG County would devote most of their energy in making all due effort to keep parents like pgtitans from leaving the school system rather than having its superintendent openly "admit" that its flagship high school simply can't be replicated.
Over the span of two decades, how many families have sent their children to private school or just left PG County altogether? As per my initial assertion, I would assume this number would be enough to fill at least two more Eleanor Roosevelt High Schools. With any impending redistricting moves, why is it not possible for the school board to gerrymander successful school zones? If the answer is not to alienate voters, wouldn't you think the school board would be more concerned with the involved parents who actually do vote rather than...well who? I am trying to wrap my head around what constituency PG County Public Schools could possibly be so afraid of pi$$ing off by making dramatic rezoning changes in a school system already so dysfunctional (at least by Maryland standards).
I mean consider this, what about the parents that move to Greenbelt/Bowie to go to the better schools and pay the higher property value to send their kids to those schools, is it fair for them to go through that when there are people who have kids who live in places like New Carrollton, for instance, who get to have the same opportunity? One of the things I've always been told is to buy in a place with good schools around you, not just in your neighborhood because of the chance that the schools could be redistricted.
You make some good points, but the above is the problem. People have paid extra money to move into the Bowie area (outside the city limits) and expected to attend the closest schools, which are in ... Bowie. Instead, the school board has assigned some of these upscale neighborhoods to crappy schools at all three levels. In some cases, the boundaries were redrawn after the houses were purchased (for instance, it looks as if the Fairwood community and probably the Woodmore North community were assigned to Bowie High until about 2004 or so, then the assignment changed to DuVal). For the Fairwood and Woodmore North communities, Tasker Middle School is closer than Thomas Johnson Middle, to which those communities are assigned). I heard that politics was behind those assignment decisions -- hmm. So the school system pays extra transportation dollars to placate some local politicians? There are other communities just outside the city limits that are assigned to Bowie area schools.
In PG, it's difficult to move to an area where several public schools in that area are all highly ranked. You can't compare what you are seeing in NOVA to what is going on in PG. Again, that's the whole problem.
Let's look at this issue from this particular time frame. You have the opportunity to move fairly soon. Others do not, because of the current housing market and other considerations. You say you would never place your children in a PG public school. Others don't have that option for various reasons.
Good exchange here. I think what could go a long way in coming close to replicating Eleanor Roosevelt is simply having firm expectations when it comes to behavior and academic rigor.
Yes. And it doesn't have to be in a stand-alone school either. My high school had an A course and a B course, with high expectations in each. I thought this was a good model. Everyone from the teachers to the principal (and vice principal) to the guidance counsleors were like mentors to me. The school was a magnet, however. Also, the school did away with this model, to its detriment in the long run, in my opinion.
You make some good points, but the above is the problem. People have paid extra money to move into the Bowie area (outside the city limits) and expected to attend the closest schools, which are in ... Bowie. Instead, the school board has assigned some of these upscale neighborhoods to crappy schools at all three levels. In some cases, the boundaries were redrawn after the houses were purchased (for instance, it looks as if the Fairwood community and probably the Woodmore North community were assigned to Bowie High until about 2004 or so, then the assignment changed to DuVal). For the Fairwood and Woodmore North communities, Tasker Middle School is closer than Thomas Johnson Middle, to which those communities are assigned). I heard that politics was behind those assignment decisions -- hmm. So the school system pays extra transportation dollars to placate some local politicians? There are other communities just outside the city limits that are assigned to Bowie area schools.
In PG, it's difficult to move to an area where several public schools in that area are all highly ranked. You can't compare what you are seeing in NOVA to what is going on in PG. Again, that's the whole problem.
Let's look at this issue from this particular time frame. You have the opportunity to move fairly soon. Others do not, because of the current housing market and other considerations. You say you would never place your children in a PG public school. Others don't have that option for various reasons.
BINGO! You ran right into my point. You are 100% right, my family is in a position that many aren't in and it's because of choices we all have made. People have moved here because this is where they want to be. I don't knock them for that, but when we brought our place, we more or less had one foot in, and one foot out. We purposedly brought a place well under our budget to save money to move to another county in time for our daughter to be ready for school. Even in the worse case scenario, we put ourselves in a position because we knew we would eventually need a way out in order to avoid putting our child in the school system. In the worst of cases, like now, we can just rent our place out when necessary. Not recommending that for everyone, but if we brought a place that didn't have that option then we should have been aware of the risk of schools we were putting our children into.
As far as other people, I doubt they brought in this county with that same intent. Many, many people buy here with the intent of this being a long term home, which again there is nothing wrong with that. My issue is however, when you go a buy a home, you aren't just buying the home, you're buying the neighborhood, you're buying the school system, and everything else that comes along with it. Am I supposed to believe that these individuals who brought in the neighborhoods that they did, are completely oblivious to what has transpired with their neighborhood schools prior to? Let me put it like this, to be frank, a lot of people who have brought in this county haven't done an ounce of research other than how big their house will be. Neighborhoods like Fairwood have angry parents because they were told they were going to have a brand new school...by the developers of those neighborhoods, not the school system! Even with that said, when you buy into those places you have to look at more than just the fact that you're buying a nice home in Bowie, you also have to consider what type of schools will your child attend and is that okay? I'm not convinced that people did that type of research and now they want an out.
Who fault is it that they didn't do more research? So now we should change the rules because the parents in Fairwood were duped into believing that a new school would be built? I think this ties back to so many issues within this county. Where is the responsibility? You don't go buying a home in National Harbor and expect that your child would be sent to ERHS, do you? So why do people think this way? If you brought a home in a neighborhood with bad schools, that was a decision that those people made and have to live with. That's harsh, I know, but if schools was so important to these parents, why did they come to a county with such a poor and dysfunctional system in the first place? Was it really about getting in good schools or was it the nice new development that was relatively cheaper than other local counties?
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, I would have to live with the decision that my wife and I made to move to the school district in which I did. I mean consider this, what about the parents that move to Greenbelt/Bowie to go to the better schools and pay the higher property value to send their kids to those schools, is it fair for them to go through that when there are people who have kids who live in places like New Carrollton, for instance, who get to have the same opportunity? One of the things I've always been told is to buy in a place with good schools around you, not just in your neighborhood because of the chance that the schools could be redistricted. Even now, where we are trying to move out in VA, there are 3 elementary schools around the neighborhoods that we are looking that rank among the top 100 or so elementary schools in the state and the middle schools are equally highly regarded. Regardless of what happens I know my children are going to good schools.
