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I agree JEB. It would be nice to have some more neighborhoods that are not only walkable/livable but also more quiet. I love having a lot of things nearby in Adams Morgan, I don't love that it's always so loud/active on weekends.
Brookland, Palisades, Hill East, Tenleytown, SW Waterfront, Brightwood, Takoma, Glover Park, Bloomingdale...
That's not surprising; the Post article cited directly from Census data:
"The census shows that the number of children younger than 5 [in DC] remained stable over the decade, but the number of children ages 5 to 14 fell 20 percent, from 65,000 to 51,000."
The fact that there are some yuppies, buppies and guppies with big strollers taking up sidewalk space in a few parts of Logan and Ledroit Park and getting all giddy about their good fortune in the DCPS elementary school lottery or a few new charters is not inconsistent with the fact that, as reported, families with school-age children appear to be continuing to exit the District.
My sense is that may not matter to some posters on this forum so long as the families that leave are primarily AA and there's a new place to shoot pool on H Street.
The larger point of the article was that DC has become an increasingly attractive "urban dormitory" for the post-college crowd, as well as a nice place for empty-nesters. Maybe that's good enough for some, and by most measures the city is certainly nicer than it was during the worst of the Marion Barry days, but cities that successfully attract and retain families and a wider range of age groups (for example, Chicago, Boston, Pittsburgh, Montreal and Toronto) consistently seem to score higher than DC in national and international surveys in terms of overall livability.
For the record, I didn't claim that the overall trend of middle class parents leaving DC when their kids reach school age has shifted. I was simply pointing out that many more have given DCPS a chance in recent years who previously would not.
I also think you're missing the larger trend. This younger generation is moving back into cities. They may move for a better school district, but most aren't going to up and move to the far suburbs the minute they have kids. It's not just a young adult playground mentality. You have to give it time for their lives to play out.
I agree JEB. It would be nice to have some more neighborhoods that are not only walkable/livable but also more quiet. I love having a lot of things nearby in Adams Morgan, I don't love that it's always so loud/active on weekends.
I think the fact that you live right on the strip (if I recall correctly) is a big issue with your perception. I don't think many people could survive long on that particular strip. I know some people who live nearby and they're removed from the noise and chaos but still have the walkability part.
Enough on the strip to get all the spillover of people hootin' and hollerin', and people driving in their tricked-out loud-ass cars blasting ****ty music. And the occasional beef.
For the record, I didn't claim that the overall trend of middle class parents leaving DC when their kids reach school age has shifted. I was simply pointing out that many more have given DCPS a chance in recent years who previously would not.
I also think you're missing the larger trend. This younger generation is moving back into cities. They may move for a better school district, but most aren't going to up and move to the far suburbs the minute they have kids. It's not just a young adult playground mentality. You have to give it time for their lives to play out.
As the Census data seems to indicate, the larger trend at the moment is not for the "younger generation" to raise their families in DC and send their kids to DCPS. It's to move to - or stay in - close-in suburbs like Arlington that historically have had strong public school systems (or, as past DC generations have done, go private). Whether the benefits of that trend extend in the future to cities like DC and Alexandria whose school systems have not been considered strong, or instead inure primarily to the benefit of other close-in suburbs such as Falls Church and Silver Spring, really remains to be seen.
And, of course, what we've just been talking about are the choices to be made by younger people who are already living in DC. There's also a large cohort of younger people in the area who, for a variety of reasons, have never lived and will never live in DC. Those who welcome population growth in cities that, just years ago, seemed inexorably to be losing population love to assert that the "younger generation is moving back into cities," but that has to be reconciled with the fact that the demographics of outer suburbs in the area, such as Loudoun County in VA, actually skew fairly young.
As the Census data seems to indicate, the larger trend at the moment is not for the "younger generation" to raise their families in DC and send their kids to DCPS. It's to move to - or stay in - close-in suburbs like Arlington that historically have had strong public school systems (or, as past DC generations have done, go private). Whether the benefits of that trend extend in the future to cities like DC and Alexandria whose school systems have not been considered strong, or instead inure primarily to the benefit of other close-in suburbs such as Falls Church and Silver Spring, really remains to be seen.
And, of course, what we've just been talking about are the choices to be made by younger people who are already living in DC. There's also a large cohort of younger people in the area who, for a variety of reasons, have never lived and will never live in DC. Those who welcome population growth in cities that, just years ago, seemed inexorably to be losing population love to assert that the "younger generation is moving back into cities," but that has to be reconciled with the fact that the demographics of outer suburbs in the area, such as Loudoun County in VA, actually skew fairly young.
1. I never said the overall trend has shifted to young middle class people raising their children in cities. I even said many move to nearby urban suburbs like Arlington or Alexandria. But, the reality is that a sizable portion are (I know many) and many more would if DCPS weren't so screwed up. So, you're saying the same thing as I said.
2. You seem to think moving to dense, walkable neighborhoods requires one to leave the suburbs. From LA to Detroit to New York, the census reveals that there has been a significant growth in people living in downtown / inner city neighborhoods. However, just look at how Fairfax County is rebuilding Tysons into a real city to see that it's not limited to older central cities.
1. I never said the overall trend has shifted to young middle class people raising their children in cities. I even said many move to nearby urban suburbs like Arlington or Alexandria. But, the reality is that a sizable portion are (I know many) and many more would if DCPS weren't so screwed up. So, you're saying the same thing as I said.
OK. But the Census data indicates that the number of school-age children in DC declined over the past decade, so you're basically paying more attention to who is arriving than to those who are leaving. That's not unusual; if you check the Pittsburgh forum, for example, you'll find many posters who are fine with the fact that the city's total population continues to decline, so long as the average income and education levels of the city's residents are improving.
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Originally Posted by Bluefly
You seem to think moving to dense, walkable neighborhoods requires one to leave the suburbs. From LA to Detroit to New York, the census reveals that there has been a significant growth in people living in downtown / inner city neighborhoods. However, just look at how Fairfax County is rebuilding Tysons into a real city to see that it's not limited to older central cities.
Where did I say that?
There are lots of cities where the downtowns have gained residents, even as the total number of residents declined. It's fortunate for DC that its total population increased, rather than declined, but that doesn't detract from the fact that the population growth is uneven, with most of the growth among the post-college crowd and empty nesters. Other people may not care about that, but it's part of what ultimately makes DC seem less well-rounded than many other cities. Indeed, you'd probably be more likely to have a city that others - besides the Post - considered "fun" and "hip" if you had a larger cohort of people who grew up in the city and stayed there as they pursued non-traditional paths. There aren't that many kids who fall into that category these days in DC and, when they want to do something non-traditional, they tend to leave for a less expensive place with a more eclectic vibe.
It doesn't mean that DC isn't a pretty city with many fun things to do. It just means it has more of a theme-park character than a lot of other places.
Fairfax certainly plans to rebuild Tysons; whether they end up with a "real city," as opposed to just a slightly more transit-friendly enviroment for workers living elsewhere, remains to be seen.
OK. But the Census data indicates that the number of school-age children in DC declined over the past decade, so you're basically paying more attention to who is arriving than to those who are leaving. That's not unusual; if you check the Pittsburgh forum, for example, you'll find many posters who are fine with the fact that the city's total population continues to decline, so long as the average income and education levels of the city's residents are improving.
There are lots of cities where the downtowns have gained residents, even as the total number of residents declined. It's fortunate for DC that its total population increased, rather than declined, but that doesn't detract from the fact that the population growth is uneven, with most of the growth among the post-college crowd and empty nesters. Other people may not care about that, but it's part of what ultimately makes DC seem less well-rounded than many other cities.
Fairfax certainly plans to rebuild Tysons; whether they end up with a "real city," as opposed to just a slightly more transit-friendly enviroment for workers living elsewhere, remains to be seen.
I don't understand your point. The topic of this thread is about the influx of new people into the city. I'm paying more attention to it because that's the subset of the overall population we're discussing in this thread. You should start another thread if you would like to discuss the overall population of DC.
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Where did I say that?
You said it here:
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There's also a large cohort of younger people in the area who, for a variety of reasons, have never lived and will never live in DC.
I don't understand your point. The topic of this thread is about the influx of new people into the city. I'm paying more attention to it because that's the subset of the overall population we're discussing in this thread. You should start another thread if you would like to discuss the overall population of DC.
No - the topic of the thread is whether the influx of new people into the city warrants the Post's description of the city as "fun" and "hip." The OP challenged that assertion and, while I don't agree with all of his arguments, I agree with some of them. You may disagree, but I think part of what makes DC less attractive than other urban areas is the fact that so many families tend to leave when they have school-age children. You end up with career-oriented types who move here in their 20s and leave in their 30s, rather than laid-back types exploring alternative paths who've grown up in the city, have roots in the area and make the city their permanent home.
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Originally Posted by Bluefly
You said it here:
The quote doesn't support your assertion. An observation that plenty of young people in the area don't and won't live in DC doesn't speak to whether a particular suburban neighborhood is or isn't walkable. Some live in walkable areas like Arlington or Bethesda; others live in completely car-dependent parts of Loudoun County.
No - the topic of the thread is whether the influx of new people into the city warrants the Post's description of the city as "fun" and "hip." The OP challenged that assertion and, while I don't agree with all of his arguments, I agree with some of them. You may disagree, but I think part of what makes DC less attractive than other urban areas is the fact that so many families tend to leave when they have school-age children. You end up with career-oriented types who move here in their 20s and leave in their 30s, rather than laid-back types exploring alternative paths who've grown up in the city, have roots in the area and make the city their permanent home.
So, we're supposed to be shocked that a city built for the sole purpose of housing a federal government with workers coming and going from all over the world to help run or participate in the world's most powerful government isn't simultaneously the most carefree, laid back, domesticated city? We're supposed to shake our heads in dismay because people in this city work long hours and care about their careers rather than jam away in garage bands?
Baltimore waits to fulfill your every desire. DC is what it is, and that won't fundamentally change, but my whole point is that more and more people are choosing to settle here than have in at least the last 50 years. You're just not giving it enough time.
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The quote doesn't support your assertion. An observation that plenty of young people in the area don't and won't live in DC doesn't speak to whether a particular suburban neighborhood is or isn't walkable. Some live in walkable areas like Arlington or Bethesda; others live in completely car-dependent parts of Loudoun County.
You can move the goalposts all you want, but the bottom line is that, while there are obviously young people who still move out to the outer suburbs or remain there because that's where they were raised, the overall trend for the highly educated of this generation and discussed in this thread is in the opposite direction. You just need to look at the shift in housing market demand to know that.
Last edited by Bluefly; 05-07-2011 at 11:54 AM..
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