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I would guess that Atlanta has lower extreme lows annually than SE England, so as surprising as this may sound I think palms might survive better in SE England than they would anywhere north of Macon.
Much of SE England is zone 8b(with some fringe coastal areas being 9a), while Atlanta is zone 8a. That would make a diff for plants that don't like cold, but also don't need much summer heat.
Atlanta's avg temps are for Hartsfield Intl Airport, which is around elev 1,000 asl. Absent an inversion situation temps drop an avg of 5.4F for each 1,000 ft asl. That alone would drop temps around 5F compared to Sydney. Let's just say you added that to the Jan avg high/low for Atlanta and you get 57.7/39.2F for the avg's. Still colder than Sydney, but warmer than London which is sea level.
Much of SE England is zone 8b(with some fringe coastal areas being 9a), while Atlanta is zone 8a. That would make a diff for plants that don't like cold, but also don't need much summer heat.
Atlanta's avg temps are for Hartsfield Intl Airport, which is around elev 1,000 asl. Absent an inversion situation temps drop an avg of 5.4F for each 1,000 ft asl. That alone would drop temps around 5F compared to Sydney. Let's just say you added that to the Jan avg high/low for Atlanta and you get 57.7/39.2F for the avg's. Still colder than Sydney, but warmer than London which is sea level.
That's kind of my point I guess - there is alot to look at when you compare climates:
I think that this issue of “where palm trees grow” is very overdone in terms of a climate indicator. No doubt Atlanta has colder winters than Sydney – it should, it is inland (while Sydney is coastal) and at the base of highlands.
My point is more that while I find it interesting that palms grow in temperate latitudes, but that doesn’t make temperate climates somehow “warm or subtropical”. Palms seem to be growing everywhere in temperate latitudes/climates, Vancouver, NYC, London, Washington, DC, Paris, Melbourne...etc -lol. In fact, on the coastal margins at least, show me a climate that at least someone is not growing palms from 40 latitide North or south? Is cold the factor or heat?
Both Miami and San Diego have very few frosts – yet coconut palms thrive in Miami and die a quick and ugly death in San Diego. I have been told that many tropical plants require HEAT to do well. So I think there is more to this issue than simply record lows or winter lows. Sydney is on the line – but Melbourne is a cool and cloudy climate compared to hot and sunny Atlanta. The monthly mean temps prove that.
YOU said palms would not survive in Atlanta (not me)…which is clearly an error based on the facts. Palms DO survive in Atlanta.
Another error (I think)… if by saying “those palms would thrive thrive in either Sydney or Melbourne” (the ones pictured above) is also incorrect: At least two of the palms in the picture above are Sabal Palmetto – they need very hot summers to grow large and have a full canopy. Sydney and especially Melbourne are far too cold in summer for Sable Palmetto to do well in those locations. Sabal "might" survive in Melbourne…but they would never thrive.
Folks who live in cool climates like Sydney and Melbourne love to use "records" when they talk about their climates compared to others, it makes them seem warmer - lol. It hits 90 F (or higher) 30 to 45 days a year in Atlanta on average...and 90 days a year in southern Georgia on average hit 90 F or higher. What are the average number of 90 F days in Melbourne each summer - lol.
I know you think that Australia is so mild…but compared to many locations like Atlanta you have a lot of cool weather.
I think 30 days of plus 90F for Atlanta is on the low side. Philly averages 27 days a year over 90F. On the Atlanta NWS site, the number for plus 90F days is 44. Your upper limit is correct.
I think 30 days of plus 90F for Atlanta is on the low side. Philly averages 27 days a year over 90F. On the Atlanta NWS site, the number for plus 90F days is 44. Your upper limit is correct.
Heck, with all those 90 F days in metro Philly ….maybe you should start growing palms – lol.
Much of SE England is zone 8b(with some fringe coastal areas being 9a), while Atlanta is zone 8a. That would make a diff for plants that don't like cold, but also don't need much summer heat.
Atlanta's avg temps are for Hartsfield Intl Airport, which is around elev 1,000 asl. Absent an inversion situation temps drop an avg of 5.4F for each 1,000 ft asl. That alone would drop temps around 5F compared to Sydney. Let's just say you added that to the Jan avg high/low for Atlanta and you get 57.7/39.2F for the avg's. Still colder than Sydney, but warmer than London which is sea level.
You also have to remember that Hartsfield-Jackson is in a really urban area, and the Urban Heat Island effect is huge in Atlanta. Atlanta is probably the warmest part of the whole metro area, the surrounding countryside has much colder nights and slightly cooler days. I used to live about 30 miles outside of Atlanta and on a clear, calm night it would be 5-10 F colder at my house than at Hartsfield-Jackson. But I know this thread is Atlanta vs Sydney, not about the surrounding countryside lol.
I remember seeing crepe myrtles and southern magnolias in S. Jersey when I was a kid. Then I went to Norfolk, VA and Mississippi and was floored with the differences. In Vicksburg they were huge and made the ones around here look puny and stunted. Norfolk the streets are lined with huge and flowering myrtles that are really beautiful. I remember cotton fields in Mississippi too which look really beautiful. Can't grow that anywhere in England or Philly.
Anyone notice Sydney is constantly being compared to other cities? No surprise, I vote for it again!
Why not, it has a really neat type of hybrid climate between a San Diego and a Charleston or Mobile. It's not bone dry, and yet never suffers hot summers like the SE USA. Looking at summer temps there, the nights are not too cool. I'll bet it looks really lush right about now.
I just checked Atlanta's NWS data set (Atlanta)...they report 332 days per year (on average) that reach 50 F (10 C) or higher. I would guess that a day that fails to hit 50 F (or higher) is not all that common. Perhaps 5/7 times a month from late December through March
33 days the entire year. My guess is Sydney would be at most 5, maybe even 0.
My point is more that while I find it interesting that palms grow in temperate latitudes, but that doesn’t make temperate climates somehow “warm or subtropical”. Palms seem to be growing everywhere in temperate latitudes/climates, Vancouver, NYC, London, Washington, DC, Paris, Melbourne...etc -lol. In fact, on the coastal margins at least, show me a climate that at least someone is not growing palms from 40 latitide North or south? Is cold the factor or heat?
NYC? I can't remember ever seeing a palm tree in NYC or anywhere in the metro area. Even if they exist, they must be rare. They're a very common plant in London.
Very tough choice. Atlanta has a pretty nice cool season, but I'll have to go with Sydney for the more tolerable summers.
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