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Your classification would put parts of SW England in the warm oceanic zone, but London in the cool oceanic zone. London is only slightly cooler in winter but much warmer the rest of the year than anywhere in SW England.
Are you sure? I couldn't find anywhere in England with a monthly mean of the coldest month warmer than 7°C. Bristol was well below.
Scilly Isles are above 7C in the coldest month, so is Penzance. Newquay, Helston, Falmouth and Teignmouth were all between 6.5-7.0C in the 1971-2000 series, so some would probably qualify now.
Land's End doesn't quite reach 7C but it has a very stable climate; the record high is only 28.9C and the record low is only -3.4C.
Jan: 7.3C vs 5.2C
Feb: 7.2C vs 5.3C
Mar: 8.6C vs 7.7C
Apr: 9.9C vs 9.9C
May: 12.6C vs 13.3C
Jun: 14.9C vs 16.4C
Jul: 16.9C vs 18.8C
Aug: 16.9C vs 18.5C
Sep: 15.3C vs 15.7C
Oct: 12.5C vs 12.0C
Nov: 9.8C vs 8.1C
Dec: 8.0C vs 5.5C
Scilly Isles are above 7C in the coldest month, so is Penzance. Newquay, Helston, Falmouth and Teignmouth were all between 6.5-7.0C in the 1971-2000 series, so some would probably qualify now.
Land's End doesn't quite reach 7C but it has a very stable climate; the record high is only 28.9C and the record low is only -3.4C.
Looking up these places, highlights how warm summer minimums are, compared to places in NZ with the same summer maximums. They all have minimums warmer than I average here in summer. The usual reason would be a greater percentage of sunshine- so quicker cooling. A factor I hadn't considered before, is how much shorter the summer nights would be there, compared to here. 2-3 hours less darkness, would have quite an impact on minimums.
Prefer Twearthas climate classification as it does rank local areas and would be better for places like the uk as I really don't agree with some other climate classifications.
That was the vegetation change I wanted to capture between my "subtropical" and "warm continental" category. Do you think my 7°C threshold is closer to the vegetation transition. Certainly, I'd want those Carolina spots to be in a different climate category than the mid-Atlantic. The one issue is that while Trewartha (or my) classification goes well with the Eastern and Midwestern North America, does it work well with vegetation in other parts of the world? It's easy to draw your line to fit exactly the place you live in, but there's the danger it might non-applicable elsewhere. I think my system does a decent job separating perceptions of different types of winter (or non-winters depending on your perspective) but vegetation-wise are the separation meaningful elsewhere. The southern Hemisphere doesn't have any "Warm Continental", the other big mass of it would be in East Asia, and maybe a few spots in Europe. Would be interesting to check if there's a vegetation change in East Asia around the same boundaries.
That's the tough part I guess - how do you make your classifications work everywhere ? Now we know why so few academics ever attempt to create a new climate classification – lol. Worse, vegetation only based climate classifications can be deceiving. Still, I think if you looked at the C/D heavy climate lines Trewartha placed in Europe, Asia, Australia, South America...etc you would find roughly the same change in flora and fauna between his D (Temperate) and C (Subtropical ) climate groups. In fact, if you look at most areas (there are several areas they are not), that D/C climate line straddles the 43 – 45 F isotherm for the coldest month. So I think you’re really close with the 7 C you suggested – in fact I think you came closer than he (Trewartha ). Of course we have more data than he did in the 1960’s.
If you live in a temperate climate like much of the northern USA, you’ll often notice that the isotherm (very roughly) of 45 F is when plants, lawns, wild grasses,…etc start to fall off (in fall ) or come back (in spring). Here along the Connecticut coast, around late November (on average) the monthly mean temp falls below 45 F…and things die off pretty quickly. In April, as soon as we start averaging above 44 F (again roughly) plant life seems to spring to life rapidly.
Again, this is why I think Trewartha did a better job than his father (lol) Koppen – which C/D line is much closer that middle 40’s F line for the coldest month.
Placing Minneapolis and Hopkinsville in the same climate type makes even less sense than Koeppen's humid subtropical zone. Notice that the huge change in landscape (and not to mention impacts on plant life) that comes with the disappearance of the snowpack is the only change that is being ignored by the little group here. Brown grass in most years doth not a continental climate make. Plus the bias both you and Trewartha have towards the East Coast and typical American climate perceptions really shows its face. An East Coast-based classification doesn't work in other parts of the world, and a worldwide classification system is what Koeppen and most other climatologists were trying to create (Koeppen created the best one).
Also, Wavehunter's landscape photographs corroborate my own views. The (using the term loosely) "true" subtropical climates are located where there is some dormancy and seasonal change but not enough to have snow or frozen ground, like Washington. Towards the southern end it doesn't look more subtropical to me, it just looks like more elements of the tropics intruding as the 18C isotherm draws nearer, which is evidenced by tropical-type plants such as palm trees and citrus appearing (all of these types and all the fruits that were mentioned appear in tropical climates).
Your pictures of northern Florida look tropical to me. I can't tell much of a difference. Of course there is a difference and I'm not suggesting that northern Florida is tropical, but we all know that it is pretty close to being tropical ("near-tropical").
Placing Minneapolis and Hopkinsville in the same climate type makes even less sense than Koeppen's humid subtropical zone. Notice that the huge change in landscape (and not to mention impacts on plant life) that comes with the disappearance of the snowpack is the only change that is being ignored by the little group here. Brown grass in most years doth not a continental climate make. Plus the bias both you and Trewartha have towards the East Coast and typical American climate perceptions really shows its face. An East Coast-based classification doesn't work in other parts of the world, and a worldwide classification system is what Koeppen and most other climatologists were trying to create (Koeppen created the best one).
If the Hopkinsville you mean is Hopkinsville, Kentucky, it is located in the extreme southern portion of the D/Temperate climate zone ...while Minneapolis is located deep in the northern interior. So obviously there is some fade from one climate zone into the next...climate lines are broad and slowly change. We are not dealing with a cake recipe – lol
As far as trewartha’s system being bias toward the East Coast of the USA – nothing could be further from the truth. Glenn Trewartha (and L. Horn who assisted) were both born and raised in the USA upper Midwest. Any bias on my part is because Trewartha system is just superior to the Koppon system everywhere in the USA, as well as most of the world. Trewartha just created a better world-wide classifcation system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patricius Maximus
Also, Wavehunter's landscape photographs corroborate my own views. The (using the term loosely) "true" subtropical climates are located where there is some dormancy and seasonal change but not enough to have snow or frozen ground, like Washington. Towards the southern end it doesn't look more subtropical to me, it just looks like more elements of the tropics intruding as the 18C isotherm draws nearer, which is evidenced by tropical-type plants such as palm trees and citrus appearing (all of these types and all the fruits that were mentioned appear in tropical climates).
Your pictures of northern Florida look tropical to me. I can't tell much of a difference. Of course there is a difference and I'm not suggesting that northern Florida is tropical, but we all know that it is pretty close to being tropical ("near-tropical").
You seem to be saying that Trewarha’s C/D line does work - since my series of pictures shows the vegatation changes from Trewartha's D to C climate groups?. Now your confusing me – lol. I do agree, “subtropical” (roughly) should be there is a light dormancy/seasonal change, but not enough to have snow or frozen ground . Yet, although not very frequently, IT DOES SNOW in Washington DC, sometimes 15 inches of snow will pile up, and the coldest monthly mean temp is 36 F/2 C. That is not a subtropical climate.
How an area “looks” to someone (boreal, temperate, subtropical, tropical...etc) is subjective to some extent. To be fair, you live in one of the coldest populated areas of the world, with a very short frost free season, long severe winters, and rather cool(ish) summers. So perhaps the pictures of these locations in winter do look nearly tropical to you. A person from Cuba, Puerto Rico, Vietnam, or northern Australia would not see it that way of course. So I can understand the lens that you view things through. However, any world climate classification must allow a bigger weight for how more people would view things, not be weighted toward the minority. Look at those in the southern Hemisphere who protest (or laugh) at the thought of NYC or Washington being considered subtropical. Would the masses in Africa, southern Europe, south Asia, and South America ...etc considers NYC subtropical or temperate?
My guess is that is why Trewartha is winning the poll...his climate lines are more “real world". In any event…the discussion of this is certainly quite interesting.
Last edited by wavehunter007; 08-25-2012 at 06:58 AM..
How an area “looks” to someone (boreal, temperate, subtropical, tropical...etc) is subjective to some extent. To be fair, you live in one of the coldest populated areas of the world, with a very short frost free season, long severe winters, and rather cool(ish) summers. So perhaps the pictures of these locations in winter do look nearly tropical to you. A person from Cuba, Puerto Rico, Vietnam, or northern Australia would not see it that way of course. So I can understand the lens that you view things through. However, any world climate classification must allow a bigger weight for how more people would view things, not be weighted toward the minority. Look at those in the southern Hemisphere who protest (or laugh) at the thought of NYC or Washington being considered subtropical. Would the masses in Africa, southern Europe, south Asia, and South America ...etc considers NYC subtropical or temperate?
My guess is that is why Trewartha is winning the poll...his climate lines are more “real world". In any event…the discussion of this is certainly quite interesting.
I think that has a lot to do with perception. NYC & DC are almost never depicted as hot & humid cities in the media. I've experienced more 100-degree (37.8 C) days this summer than snowy days last winter. I'd be lying if I said it was never cold & snowy but I've probably seen more snow in NYC while watching TV than I've actually seen while living here (95% of my life so far).
I used to think the Pacific Northwest was perpetually overcast and rainy but that isn't true. It's almost always depicted as such though.
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