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-19.0C 2023-2024 winter
-19.0C 2022-2023 winter
-19.0C 2021-2022 winter
-20.0C 2020-2021 winter
-15.0C 2019-2020 winter
-25.0C 2018-2019 winter
-20.5C 2017-2018 winter
too much data missing from prior winters
-19.6C or -3.3F Average
-19.0C or -2.2F Median
result: 6b
And, it makes sense, on US Hardiness Zone maps, the areas adjacent to Amherstburg, Windsor and Niagara are zone 6b. https://extension.purdue.edu/news/co...20Ohio%20River.
Areas with less lake moderation or urban heat islands in that part of the Great Lakes like Fort Wayne IN are even lower hardiness (6a), and the area between Kankakee IL and Lafayette IN is even lower (5b). And more northern inland uplands like Houghton Lakes, MI or where I live (Centre Wellington, ON) are even colder (5a).
You have to go much further south than Amherstburg to reach true 7a in parts of North America away from the oceans, those only begin around the Ohio River along the IN/OH/KY/IL border
-19.0C 2023-2024 winter
-19.0C 2022-2023 winter
-19.0C 2021-2022 winter
-20.0C 2020-2021 winter
-15.0C 2019-2020 winter
-25.0C 2018-2019 winter
-20.5C 2017-2018 winter
too much data missing from prior winters
-19.6C or -3.3F Average
-19.0C or -2.2F Median
result: 6b
And, it makes sense, on US Hardiness Zone maps, the areas adjacent to Amherstburg, Windsor and Niagara are zone 6b. https://extension.purdue.edu/news/co...20Ohio%20River.
Areas with less lake moderation or urban heat islands in that part of the Great Lakes like Fort Wayne IN are even lower hardiness (6a), and the area between Kankakee IL and Lafayette IN is even lower (5b). And more northern inland uplands like Houghton Lakes, MI or where I live (Centre Wellington, ON) are even colder (5a).
You have to go much further south than Amherstburg to reach true 7a in parts of North America away from the oceans, those only begin around the Ohio River along the IN/OH/KY/IL border
Nope there are microclimates, Amherstburg waterfronts are 7a. Cleveland is 7a thanks to lake Erie and it’s in northern Ohio. Inland Ohio tends to be 6b and even 6a. Even Cincy is 6b. KY is 6b and 7a. Windsor is definitely 6b. I know the Windsor area including Amherstburg is 6b but 7a microclimates are found. 6b is suitable for Sabal minor, needle palm, and saw palmetto. Windmills in 7a is the limit, so 6b would require protection the days that reach 0°F(-17.8°C) or below.
Nope there are microclimates, Amherstburg waterfronts are 7a. Cleveland is 7a thanks to lake Erie and it’s in northern Ohio. Inland Ohio tends to be 6b and even 6a. Even Cincy is 6b. KY is 6b and 7a. Windsor is definitely 6b. I know the Windsor area including Amherstburg is 6b but 7a microclimates are found. 6b is suitable for Sabal minor, needle palm, and saw palmetto. Windmills in 7a is the limit, so 6b would require protection the days that reach 0°F(-17.8°C) or below.
okay, maybe with the 2023 hardiness zone map there's a narrow sliver of 7a along the south shore of Lake Erie.
Point Pelee is 6b too though, and it juts out into Lake Erie. Lake Erie is capable of freezing over completely which reduces the moderating effect compared to Lake Ontario which hasn't fully frozen over in decades (and the Niagara portion of Lake Ontario is the least prone to freezing).
Maybe someone on Bois Blanc Island would be barely 7a, due to combination of Detroit UHI and water moderation, I'm not sure.
But I do think there's a significant difference between a Lake Erie 7a and an Ohio Valley 7a. Like Point Pelee has a annual low 2.1C colder than Evansville but the January mean is 4.0C colder. When you're near the 0C mark, 4C can make a pretty big difference, such as for depth of ground freeze.
Amherstburg, ON (6b)
Jan mean: 1.0C/-5.4C (2018-2024 average)
Annual Low: -19.6C
Point Pelee, ON (6b)
Jan mean: 0.3C/-6.4C (2014-2024)
Annual Low: -18.9C
Also, winters at Point Pelee are longer, even compared to Windsor, because the cold lake water keeps things chilly into March and April. Point Pelee gets about 4.5 months of daily means being 5.0C or colder, compared to 4 months for Windsor Riverside, 2.5-3 months for Evansville, 1 month for Nashville and 0 months for Memphis.
If you can show evidence of those palms growing in Windsor or Amherstburg, I'll believe it, but until then, it's just speculation.
okay, maybe with the 2023 hardiness zone map there's a narrow sliver of 7a along the south shore of Lake Erie.
Point Pelee is 6b too though, and it juts out into Lake Erie. Lake Erie is capable of freezing over completely which reduces the moderating effect compared to Lake Ontario which hasn't fully frozen over in decades (and the Niagara portion of Lake Ontario is the least prone to freezing).
Maybe someone on Bois Blanc Island would be barely 7a, due to combination of Detroit UHI and water moderation, I'm not sure.
But I do think there's a significant difference between a Lake Erie 7a and an Ohio Valley 7a. Like Point Pelee has a annual low 2.1C colder than Evansville but the January mean is 4.0C colder. When you're near the 0C mark, 4C can make a pretty big difference, such as for depth of ground freeze.
Amherstburg, ON (6b)
Jan mean: 1.0C/-5.4C (2018-2024 average)
Annual Low: -19.6C
Point Pelee, ON (6b)
Jan mean: 0.3C/-6.4C (2014-2024)
Annual Low: -18.9C
Also, winters at Point Pelee are longer, even compared to Windsor, because the cold lake water keeps things chilly into March and April. Point Pelee gets about 4.5 months of daily means being 5.0C or colder, compared to 4 months for Windsor Riverside, 2.5-3 months for Evansville, 1 month for Nashville and 0 months for Memphis.
If you can show evidence of those palms growing in Windsor or Amherstburg, I'll believe it, but until then, it's just speculation.
Actually don’t believe Memphis is 8a, when cold waves come it can even act 7a not problem, proven in January 2018, February 2021, and December 2022. So I think it’s 7b, maybe UHI could make some areas 8a but I believe it’s 7b. And some people put Atlanta as 7b but I believe it’s 8a, it is hard for it to reach 10°F or below most years.
okay, maybe with the 2023 hardiness zone map there's a narrow sliver of 7a along the south shore of Lake Erie.
Point Pelee is 6b too though, and it juts out into Lake Erie. Lake Erie is capable of freezing over completely which reduces the moderating effect compared to Lake Ontario which hasn't fully frozen over in decades (and the Niagara portion of Lake Ontario is the least prone to freezing).
Maybe someone on Bois Blanc Island would be barely 7a, due to combination of Detroit UHI and water moderation, I'm not sure.
But I do think there's a significant difference between a Lake Erie 7a and an Ohio Valley 7a. Like Point Pelee has a annual low 2.1C colder than Evansville but the January mean is 4.0C colder. When you're near the 0C mark, 4C can make a pretty big difference, such as for depth of ground freeze.
Amherstburg, ON (6b)
Jan mean: 1.0C/-5.4C (2018-2024 average)
Annual Low: -19.6C
Point Pelee, ON (6b)
Jan mean: 0.3C/-6.4C (2014-2024)
Annual Low: -18.9C
Also, winters at Point Pelee are longer, even compared to Windsor, because the cold lake water keeps things chilly into March and April. Point Pelee gets about 4.5 months of daily means being 5.0C or colder, compared to 4 months for Windsor Riverside, 2.5-3 months for Evansville, 1 month for Nashville and 0 months for Memphis.
If you can show evidence of those palms growing in Windsor or Amherstburg, I'll believe it, but until then, it's just speculation.
Yeah there is a difference ob that, but the hardiness zone can be helpful to know where some plants can be grown. Example, Erie PA is better fir windmill palms than lets say Cleveland. But the weird part is I don’t know of windmill palms in Erie but I do in Cleveland. Erie is also way snowier, maybe that makes it similar in chances instead of better? Don’t know. Pittsburgh struggles, don’t know how the Youngstown people managed at the same hardiness zone, I think they bred a hardier type or they use protection. They are both in zone 6, I don’t know if it’s trie they managed a 7a limit without protection plant. Sabal minor, needle palms, and saw palmetto can thrive 6b. Needle palm is hardy down to zone 5, so even in Montreal you can plant them! Well of course needle palm is the hardiest palm in the world, which survived a zone 4 winter one time without protection. Most zone 5 places are continental. Evansville Cfa like for real, Erie a cold and snowy Cfa that us not Dfa just because the lake moderated enough not to reach the threshold. Evansville has typical vegetation native to Cfa, Erie not as much and many are just planted there and not native, so overall there is a difference. Compare Rostov-on-Don in Russia Dfa/Cfa borderline, exactly -3°C average coldest month, it is 7b compare that to 7b in Huntsville, AL(a typical Cfa) the difference is quite obvious! So of course there is a difference.
Amherstburg has more chances for windmills in Amherstburg than Windsor. I have no evidence, but if the did in Youngstown, which I have some evidence, it would be easier in Amherstburg or Windsor. Youngstown is even possible 6a, so the Youngstown I doubt it was without protection at least for a day. Cleveland there is evidence and it is more reliable. The reliable ones are Sabal minor, Saw Palmetto, and needle palm. The 7a areas have chances for Sago palm which is a cycad, and citrus hybirds Citrange and Citrandarin hardy down to 7a. Well there is not true citrus hardy to 7a or below, the hardiest true one is Jiouyuezao mandarin hardy down to 7b reported to being grown in Long Island, NY which is 7b. Sabal palmetto (Cabbage palm) is hardy down to 7b, but it is more reliable on 8a since in DC, 7b it showed some leaf damage.
Last edited by Subtropical-is-temperate3; 03-29-2024 at 12:01 PM..
Yeah there is a difference ob that, but the hardiness zone can be helpful to know where some plants can be grown. Example, Erie PA is better fir windmill palms than lets say Cleveland. But the weird part is I don’t know of windmill palms in Erie but I do in Cleveland. Erie is also way snowier, maybe that makes it similar in chances instead of better? Don’t know. Pittsburgh struggles, don’t know how the Youngstown people managed at the same hardiness zone, I think they bred a hardier type or they use protection. They are both in zone 6, I don’t know if it’s trie they managed a 7a limit without protection plant. Sabal minor, needle palms, and saw palmetto can thrive 6b. Needle palm is hardy down to zone 5, so even in Montreal you can plant them! Well of course needle palm is the hardiest palm in the world, which survived a zone 4 winter one time without protection. Most zone 5 places are continental. Evansville Cfa like for real, Erie a cold and snowy Cfa that us not Dfa just because the lake moderated enough not to reach the threshold. Evansville has typical vegetation native to Cfa, Erie not as much and many are just planted there and not native, so overall there is a difference. Compare Rostov-on-Don in Russia Dfa/Cfa borderline, exactly -3°C average coldest month, it is 7b compare that to 7b in Huntsville, AL(a typical Cfa) the difference is quite obvious! So of course there is a difference.
Amherstburg has more chances for windmills in Amherstburg than Windsor. I have no evidence, but if the did in Youngstown, which I have some evidence, it would be easier in Amherstburg or Windsor. Youngstown is even possible 6a, so the Youngstown I doubt it was without protection at least for a day. Cleveland there is evidence and it is more reliable. The reliable ones are Sabal minor, Saw Palmetto, and needle palm. The 7a areas have chances for Sago palm which is a cycad, and citrus hybirds Citrange and Citrandarin hardy down to 7a. Well there is not true citrus hardy to 7a or below, the hardiest true one is Jiouyuezao mandarin hardy down to 7b reported to being grown in Long Island, NY which is 7b. Sabal palmetto (Cabbage palm) is hardy down to 7b, but it is more reliable on 8a since in DC, 7b it showed some leaf damage.
The weather station for Erie is at the airport that's right on the waterfront, whereas the airport where Cleveland's weather station is located is nearly 10km inland. I was just comparison the climates for two airports, Hopkins for Cleveland and Erie Intl. All in all, Cleveland is still a warmer city than Erie, both in the summer and winter.
Anyways, one thing I'll be interested to watch this year is how much die-back the butterfly bushes (buddleia) got in my yard. We'll only know for sure when they start putting on new growth in the spring, which hasn't happened yet. This winter was the mildest ever in terms of minimum temperature here, only -17.6C (0.3F), technically a 7a type winter, whereas we have had 4b (nearly 4a) type winter temperatures in 2015 (-24.2F), and something in the -20F to -15F range is most common. Butterfly bush is hardy to Zone 5, and usually dies back to the ground here.
However, despite a 7a equivalent seasonal low this winter, the average temperature for January was still not that warm at -4C, the same as Omaha or Lincoln, NE (Zone 5b).
I can see the logic from a higher latitude point of view, but I'm not sure I like a system that makes this tropical:
But Manizales not even subtropical but warm oceanic.
Between them you only get a tiny sliver of subtropical.
I have a hard time putting a climate like Pueblo Rico into the same category as one like Manaus for example:
since both are put into the equatorial/ tropical rainforest 'Af' climate type. I wouldn't say that Pueblo Rico is not tropical. I agree that temperatures over 18 are tropical. However it is not the same flavor to me as Manaus or Kuala Lumpur
The reason because Pueblo Rico does not frequently get actual heat, just warmth. Whereas sea level Af climates will have constant muggy heat. The experience of these climates is quite different.
I agree fully with the classification of Manizales as a temperate oceanic climate, which is also called a subtropical highland climate. I think this nomenclature is correct. However there should be a tropical highland climate specifically for climates where every month averages 18+ and no month averages 22+
Actually I could even consider increasing the Cfa and hypothetical Af cutoffs somewhat higher to around 24 degrees (75f) since this is a day that is really warm and not just tepid.
For example, New York City averages 18.1 degrees in October. Not a particularly tropical feeling month, although it is very pleasant. August averages 24.5 and does feel significantly different than October in that city.
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