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I hadn't bothered reading this thread before but just did, and all I can say is yikes!
A few observations:
The OP would probably be happy in Trump City, Battery Park City, or Dallas--you know, somewhere totally fake and soulless.
That Ridgehill place looks horrifying! I didn't think anyone was building crap like that anymore. What a throwback to the 70s when they were abandoning downtowns to build malls!
"Isolation" is a mind set--I felt more isolated in Park Slope than I do on 4 acres with no neighbors in sight.
If you aren't within walking distance to the town's Main Street, then the quality of the Main Street doesn't matter at all--you'll drive to the ones you like.
The Ridgehill place looks "horrifying?" These malls are all over the place. The 'new' idea is to have open space, not enclose everything. I got a kick out of that; horrifying. Geez, better bring a blindfold in case a minivan rolls by-I wouldn't want you to go into cardiac arrest.
I've never been to this development (never heard of it before your post touting it), but from the look of it (via internet) it appears to be all new construction with a lot of retail and commercial spaces in one location. Regardless of the economics, it seems very similar to The Westchester in White Plains and every other "old mall" around. And it stands in stark contrast to the development model that is far more prevalent in this millennium which is to invest in restoring and revitalizing existing structures and infrastructure in already developed areas.
As for "one single place to do groceries, buy kids' clothes in GAP, grab a decent meal and shop for other items like sporting goods all in one afternoon without having to pull out the car from the parking lot" that's what we do in Mt Kisco.
WP is also less convenient to go to if you live in Bronxville (around 10 miles away), Tuckahoe, Eastchester and the rivertowns. Given the density and affluence of the county, there is enough room for more and better retail options.
Mt. Kisco? Maybe, but not if you live in Ardsley. Otherwise its Central Park Ave.
Revitalizing existing structures - Where in the county would you do this? Only WP and arguably MK (Tarrytown is a stretch) would have the foundation for large scale commercial development. Try proposing something like this to Irvington Main St. and you will get NIMBY pushback.
Economics is the main reason why the old malls of the 80s deteriorated. As the tenants' fortunes crumbled, the landlords (ie Simon Properties) had less money to redevelop and revitalize these malls to reflect changing times. Many of these malls had not been updated for years, if not decades. That is why one can look at it today after the fact and make the impression that they are horrible.
Last edited by Forest_Hills_Daddy; 07-25-2013 at 09:07 AM..
The point is that this new development you love is nothing new. It is straight up old school mall, just like The Westchester or the Galleria. As for revitalizing existing structures, there is plenty of this going on in Westchester. Peekskill and Yonkers have good examples of old structures being restored and reused, as do smaller towns like Ossining and Tarrytown and Croton. The goal is to avoid large scale commercial development and focus on small scale development with unique businesses using the existing infrastructure. Big development with national chains is an old, dying form of commercialism. I give this new place 5 year before it is rundown and full of empty stores.
Whether it is "nothing new" is of little use to those who previously had to drive 10+ miles to avail of anything similar. OK, Palisades Mall has been around for decades. What good is that to an Ardsley or Dobbs resident who has to get a lot done in little time?
I do not frequent Peekskill and Croton but I know Tarrytown and whatever it is they are doing, it has nothing close to a Whole Foods, GAP or even a decently sized Trader Joes. The little stores that line the main street sell overpriced garments and trinkets and offer too few choices. Bronxville has an active downtown but it still has nothing comparable. Residents there still have to drive to the Eastchester strip to go to the department store and more often shop at TJs than in A&P in their own town.
Revitalizing town centers is indeed going on but it just cannot serve the same purpose. People just end up driving to different places to meet their needs. If you try to open a GAP, Fairway and Havana Central in T-town residents will most certainly object.
You seem to have missed the smart growth movement sweeping the country. National chains can easily co-exist with smaller unique stores (which people who don't want mass-market crap like) in a main street setting using existing structures and infrastructure. Take a look at NYC, where chains fit themselves into smaller spaces in existing buildings. In Westchester, Mt. Kisco is the best example I know of, with GAP and other national chains on the same pedestrian friendly street as one-off stores. There is no need or excuse for horrifyingly ugly and tasteless development like ridgehill.
dma1250 - Hardly any of the developments you point to are happening anywhere near where RH is located and the markets that it serves. Bronxville is the closest and it does not make the cut. Mt. Kisco is simply too far away a drive for people in Ardsley, Hastings, Bronxville, Mt. Vernon, and Eastchester just to do groceries and chain shopping/dining. For them, it's the strips along CP Ave. and nothing else. White Plains is 10 miles away and it's unrealistic to go to Manhattan for basic shopping. Who cares about chains in NYC fitting into buildings?
You can keep talking about national chains coexisting with smaller stores till your eyes turn white. It won't pass the NIMBYs. Otherwise it would have been done by now. Just ask the people in Hastings - "Hey, wanna be the Mt. Kisco of the south?" I'm sure they will find that idea positively delightful.
People in this forum have already pointed it out many times before in other threads. Retail and dining options in the south are lousy. CPA is ugly. Ridge Hill is a big improvement, a fresh addition to an otherwise staid retail environment and is so far successful - few are complaining.
Horrifyingly ugly and tasteless - that is just the opinion of an anonymous poster.
Last edited by Forest_Hills_Daddy; 07-25-2013 at 03:56 PM..
FHD, as is often the case in these tat-for-tat exchanges that I seem to get into with you, you are missing the entire point of my posts completely and focussing solely on your own little point. To be clear, I could not care less about ridge hill. I don't go anywhere south of 287 (except through it as fast as possible) and you all can have all the tacky soulless malls you want. My point is about abandoning the old failed models of suburban development that lead to decaying malls and suburban blight and moving forward to smart growth that maximizes and improves what already exists. Your insistence that the residents of Hastings and other towns are too narrow minded to allow thoughtful redevelopment that restores existing structures and meets the needs of residents is just the untrue nonsense that one often hears from developers and their hand maidens.
Retail and dining options in the south are lousy. CPA is ugly. Ridge Hill is a big improvement, a fresh addition to an otherwise staid retail environment and is so far successful - few are complaining.
This is certainly debatable unless your dining is limited to Central Ave. But there's no debate in my mind that those options aren't improved by a bunch of formulaic, cookie-cutter chains. Yelp gives Havana Central 2.5 stars and The Bonefish Grill gets 3. Even the Lefteris Gyro gets worse ratings than their other 2 locations. Though in fairness, based on what I read here, it seems that most newcomers from outside the region seem to prefer nice, predictable chains.
Your insistence that the residents of Hastings and other towns are too narrow minded to allow thoughtful redevelopment that restores existing structures and meets the needs of residents...
I think residents would love redevelopment that restores existing structures to meets the needs of residents. But that's not happening very quickly around here, from what I can tell. In the meantime, I need to buy things. And although I would love for convenience sake to shop solely in my village, its not possible unless all I want to buy is useless boutique stuff or a fur coat. Meanwhile some towns look so rundown with unappealing storefronts, that it discourages people from even giving the shops a chance (case in point, Pleasantville and the OP) which is a shame. Its very strange that even in wealthy towns, there isn't a decent-looking grocery store.
FHD, as is often the case in these tat-for-tat exchanges that I seem to get into with you, you are missing the entire point of my posts completely and focussing solely on your own little point. To be clear, I could not care less about ridge hill. I don't go anywhere south of 287 (except through it as fast as possible) and you all can have all the tacky soulless malls you want. My point is about abandoning the old failed models of suburban development that lead to decaying malls and suburban blight and moving forward to smart growth that maximizes and improves what already exists. Your insistence that the residents of Hastings and other towns are too narrow minded to allow thoughtful redevelopment that restores existing structures and meets the needs of residents is just the untrue nonsense that one often hears from developers and their hand maidens.
You don't have a point. What do people in Ardsley and Bronxville have to gain with whatever is going on in Croton?? Talk about something that is actually being done within the proximity then maybe you will have a valid point.
You also do not understand the retail business. You use Mount Kisco as an example but the reality is that as a business it is little like the communities you are touting. It is a retail an commercial hub that has a lot in common with White Plains and Ridge Hill. People drive from Chappaqua and Yorktown to shop there. It would be disingenuous to say that Kisco's businesses are being sustained mainly through spending by the locals. As a hub, you can really only have a few of them or they will end up like Long Island where strips cannibalize one another. That's why you don't see the same development happening in Chappaqua or Katonah. To put it another way - the reason why Kisco is successful is because Chappaqua and Yorktown have nothing similar to offer. The economics just won't work.
Now there are multipurpose communities happening elsewhere. Good examples are Arlington and Alexandria. Tribeca/Battery Park City has followed the same model. Mt. Kisco is nothing like them. There is a lot more they have done aside from retail that you have omitted. For one, they built multilevel apartments near the town centers. They also performed major upgrades on their mass transit and roads. Then the retail works because these neighborhoods become self sustaining. If, on the other hand, residents will have to get into a car to shop, then forget it.
Can anyone say with a straight face that the same will happen in Hastings? Irvington? Eastchester? Get real. There have been proposals to build a multilevel parking lot in Pleasantville but these have always been shot down by residents as per the NY Times:
"Residents might also need to reconsider their traditional resistance to new development in light of the pressing need to generate more revenue, Mr. Scherer said, citing the long-opposed idea of building a multilevel parking garage downtown. “We want to make sure the lack of parking doesn’t thwart business development,” he said. “We need the tax dollars.”
Again, instead of making abstract statements comprised of entire points that happen far away, talk about things that go on in the vicinity.
I myself have no problem with Ridge Hill and I do not find it ugly at all. I had a great time shopping in WF, GAP, Clarks and Brooks Bros. all in one afternoon without taking the car out of the parking lot. Can't imagine doing that anywhere else nearby.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AliciaN
I think residents would love redevelopment that restores existing structures to meets the needs of residents. But that's not happening very quickly around here, from what I can tell. In the meantime, I need to buy things. And although I would love for convenience sake to shop solely in my village, its not possible unless all I want to buy is useless boutique stuff or a fur coat. Meanwhile some towns look so rundown with unappealing storefronts, that it discourages people from even giving the shops a chance (case in point, Pleasantville and the OP) which is a shame. Its very strange that even in wealthy towns, there isn't a decent-looking grocery store.
Yes, this sums it up succinctly. It just is not happening due to a whole nexus of real reasons that dma calls "nonsense". Residents in Eastchester drive to the Lord & Taylor in the strip to buy garments, and to Central for groceries. You would have thought redevelopment would have happened by now. In the meantime, there are chores that need to get done and if building a new retail hub out from the ground solves the problem then so be it.
Last edited by Forest_Hills_Daddy; 07-25-2013 at 07:09 PM..
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