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Sounds to me like employers are doing everything they can to NOT hire someone.
It used to be an employer would fine someone, invest some time and money and groom that person. Sort of an apprenticeship. When a business invests in an employee, that employee usually invests in the business and sticks around.
Now business wants to skip over the apprentice stage and go straight to the ready to go from day one types... while making an apprentice wage.
What a joke. Business in America deserves everything it gets (or doesn't get). It's a shame that American workers will be the ones feeling the brunt of that, though.
What kind of math do you use as a highly skilled machinist, trig?
Trig is very common. I use it all the time when inspecting finished surfaces. Using a tool called a sine plate, you trig out the distance from the top plate to it's bottom to achieve the desired angle. After placing your work on the plate, the surface of your work angle should read zero after running an indicator across. Simplest example I can think of, if that made any sense.
A pic might help...
Some are also designed to hold work while you machine it, but in order to achieve the desired angle, you must know how high the opposing end must be raised.
Sounds to me like employers are doing everything they can to NOT hire someone.
It used to be an employer would fine someone, invest some time and money and groom that person. Sort of an apprenticeship. When a business invests in an employee, that employee usually invests in the business and sticks around.
Now business wants to skip over the apprentice stage and go straight to the ready to go from day one types... while making an apprentice wage.
What a joke. Business in America deserves everything it gets (or doesn't get). It's a shame that American workers will be the ones feeling the brunt of that, though.
If you read my other thread, you will see I mention this in detail. It's like a hot potato game. We are always told that the unemployed are the entitled ones but it sounds like employers are the real ones with entitlement issues. But what is the breaking point? The results? High unemployment.
Andywire, it sounds like your shop should be recruiting high school seniors or community college kids who do well in math but are bored to tears by English, history, etc. Those who EVERYONE hasn't been telling them about college 24/7 because their overall grades aren't so hot. If only we hadn't done away with shop class!
Trig is very common. I use it all the time when inspecting finished surfaces. Using a tool called a sine plate, you trig out the distance from the top plate to it's bottom to achieve the desired angle. After placing your work on the plate, the surface of your work angle should read zero after running an indicator across. Simplest example I can think of, if that made any sense.
A pic might help...
Some are also designed to hold work while you machine it, but in order to achieve the desired angle, you must know how high the opposing end must be raised.
That looks like basic right triangle trig Sine, cosine, tangent, pathagorean theorum. Any decent high school junior should be able to do that it is pretty sad that you are saying so many people can't.
Sounds to me like employers are doing everything they can to NOT hire someone.
This is very true. Employers are too picky and unwilling to pay people according to their contributions. A recruiter once told me that most companies don't even have their own salary structure anymore, they simply base new-hire compensation on what they were previously making. Market rate for my position is about 20% more than what I make now, plus bonuses and other add-ons, but if I were to get a new job I wouldn't get market rate because my new compensation at a new company would be based on what I make now. If they offer a job it's not to exceed a 10% raise. How does that make any sense at all?? It makes perfect sense for the business since they find some ******* that's desperate for better pay and have a policy that enables them to offer below market rate. Just another way employees are really getting screwed today.
Companies need to stop playing these games and start compensating according to contribution and position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
Many companies have tried. The problem we have is young folks want an easy job that pays big bucks. Not many of them want to actually learn the skills that can earn them a better paycheck. And it get's a little tiring hearing everyone say "math is not my strongest area..." Instant termination right there. We use math exams for any potential apprentices. Average scores are appalling. The owner would jump for joy if he could find anyone who could solve math problems beyond algebra.
What we need is for manufacturing jobs to be better-paying, and for the general public to perceive those positions differently. Kids that are good at math in high school get pushed by their parents to become engineers because there's some stigma about not going to college. People need to learn just how advanced manufacturing operations have become, especially precision machining. It's not a walk in the park that anyone can learn, it takes talent, hard work, and smarts. The kids that want to do it grossly under-estimate how difficult it is, and the rest of the kids are over-achievers that think that these jobs are below them even though they don't know the first thing about them. If companies would compensate their production personnel better, I think the over-achievers would be more interested in learning the truth about these jobs.
That looks like basic right triangle trig Sine, cosine, tangent, pathagorean theorum. Any decent high school junior should be able to do that it is pretty sad that you are saying so many people can't.
Plane trig.....yep....usually senior level as most college prep programs will make ya take:
Andywire, it sounds like your shop should be recruiting high school seniors or community college kids who do well in math but are bored to tears by English, history, etc. Those who EVERYONE hasn't been telling them about college 24/7 because their overall grades aren't so hot. If only we hadn't done away with shop class!
Shop classes were done away with for two reasons... Low turnout, and high investment costs. You have to spend quite a bit more per student to set up a shop like environment for them to grow their skills. Fewer student could also be trained at one time, largely because of safety reasons. No sense in doing so if no one is signing up. The shop program I took in HS was closed down the year I graduated. We had an introduction to CNC machining, which would have really given kids a big advantage in this trade, but it was cut the year before I enrolled.
At the very least, kids could take that class and get a job right out of HS like I did. In fact, I got my apprenticeship while in HS. Got a chance to save money while living with the folks, and bought my 1st new car in cash. Instead of producing tax payers, we close these programs down so they can borrow federal money to learn about philosophy and stuff. As a tax payer, I think were heading in the wrong direction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSchemist80
That looks like basic right triangle trig Sine, cosine, tangent, pathagorean theorum. Any decent high school junior should be able to do that it is pretty sad that you are saying so many people can't.
Exactly. But those kids just aren't showing up these days to the trades. Used to be college graduates would go to work in the factories in the 70's but that was because manufacturing was paying the same or better as many professional occupations. Top dollar on the factory floor these days is $28/hr in most shops, and that takes a good decade of experience. Most of us earn our money in OT. I don't blame the kids for not showing up. At the same time, with so many complaining about their inability to find employment, you would expect at least a few to give it a shot.
The math does gets more intensive, but good shops are always interested in growing talent. A calculator is one of the most useful tools in any machinists box, and we keep it close at all times. The kids showing up these days barely know how to use them. But seriously, for what an apprentice will make starting out, I wouldn't expect them to run out and buy a $100 machinist calculator.
One thing to note though... It's not enough to know how to do math. The most important thing is getting the right answer at all times. On CNC machines, a wrong answer could be a crashed/damaged machine. How many people really got 100% on their math tests???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfunkle524
What we need is for manufacturing jobs to be better-paying, and for the general public to perceive those positions differently. Kids that are good at math in high school get pushed by their parents to become engineers because there's some stigma about not going to college. People need to learn just how advanced manufacturing operations have become, especially precision machining. It's not a walk in the park that anyone can learn, it takes talent, hard work, and smarts. The kids that want to do it grossly under-estimate how difficult it is, and the rest of the kids are over-achievers that think that these jobs are below them even though they don't know the first thing about them. If companies would compensate their production personnel better, I think the over-achievers would be more interested in learning the truth about these jobs.
There's the problem. With what money??? A lot of skilled tradesman left these trades years ago because they saw what was happening. Their pay stagnated because of cheaper foreign competition, more advanced technology eliminating jobs, and all the while, they were required to continuously update their skills to match the technology (without any opportunity for pay raises). So you expect me to learn even more to make a wage that's loosing to inflation??? Many simply had enough and picked up other occupations. The mechanical aptitude can be applied in many occupations. I know one that makes great money as the head of maintenance at a large hospital. He makes more than most nurses there. When I went to nursing school, one of the other guys was a tool and die maker with 20 years experience. That's 20 years experience that wont be passed down to some eager kid looking to learn, if there are any more interested in this stuff. Around here, a lot of machinists left for construction 10 year ago because it was paying better. Some want to come back to the trade, but they are very behind on the latest advancements. Like any other occupation, we must continuously update our skills or suffer dim employability odds.
But at any rate, how is a shop supposed to pay better when they struggle to get by on $80/hr shop rates? You can try to up the bid, but you simply won't win the bid when your competition is underbidding you. It's hard to really do much to remedy this situation. Some of the larger companies like Pratt and Whitney acknowledge that there is a shortage of skilled craftsman in this trade. They were offering apprentices with no experience $17/hr in Massachusetts about a year back where they manufacturing parts for airplanes. Some heavy duty work goes on there, and automation/technology hasn't done much to reduce the need for skilled labor in that area. Most of their parts are small quantity stuff where it's not economical to apply/develop automated processes. But as far as the little guys go, they're trying to cover their expenses and walk away with a little cheese. Not much left over to trick young folks into thinking this is some sort of glamorous, high paying gig.
What will happen... As the skills shortage grows, supply and demand will dictate what a skilled manufacturing worker should be paid. Boss will have to pay more to find people to widdle his parts. Since every other shop is facing the same problem, they will have to do the same. Shop rates will rise, and only then will manufacturers be in a position to pay more. Until then, young folks will look elsewhere for a career. Again, I don't blame them. I make a good living doing this, but it's a PITA to get there. The way I see it, if I'm smart enough to make good money here, I probably would have been making better money in some other occupation. The only thing keeping me at it is I love the work, and to that end, I'm glad I picked it.
This is very true. Employers are too picky and unwilling to pay people according to their contributions. A recruiter once told me that most companies don't even have their own salary structure anymore, they simply base new-hire compensation on what they were previously making. Market rate for my position is about 20% more than what I make now, plus bonuses and other add-ons, but if I were to get a new job I wouldn't get market rate because my new compensation at a new company would be based on what I make now. If they offer a job it's not to exceed a 10% raise. How does that make any sense at all?? It makes perfect sense for the business since they find some ******* that's desperate for better pay and have a policy that enables them to offer below market rate. Just another way employees are really getting screwed today.
Companies need to stop playing these games and start compensating according to contribution and position.
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If they offer a job it's not to exceed a 10% raise. How does that make any sense at all?? It makes perfect sense for the business since they find some ******* that's desperate for better pay and have a policy that enables them to offer below market rate. Just another way employees are really getting screwed today.
