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Not a big secret. $25k to $30k has been the median income in the US for several years now.
I do not see how people can live of that I sure cant rent is one paycheck where i live. 45% of all renter households pay more than 30% of their income for rent. Also with a 4% vacancy rate, and the average rent for a two-bedroom apartment i is $1,069 and a one bedroom will cost you $750 to $800 if your lucky. A studio apartment downtown will run you $1200 a month easy.
I do not see how people can live of that I sure cant rent is one paycheck where i live. 45% of all renter households pay more than 30% of their income for rent. Also with a 4% vacancy rate, and the average rent for a two-bedroom apartment i is $1,069 and a one bedroom will cost you $750 to $800 if your lucky. A studio apartment downtown will run you $1200 a month easy.
I live on 16,000 a year. Rent is $500 a month for a room (actually a 1 BR apartment which was split into two rooms) It's a bit dicey as the roommate is frequently fired/laid off from jobs on a near weekly basis. It's the bare minimum, no A/C, no cable TV, internet is either 3G or when I can get wifi from the Dunkin Donuts across the street. You would be surprised how little a lot of people live on.
...The problem is determining if the information provided are actually facts or if they are some mishandled, skewed, or otherwise adulterated data masquerading as facts...
...In the situation we have at hand, we can't all personally poll the entire working population of the US to verify the information we have been given is actually factual. So we have to trust that the source that is providing the information is giving us the correct information in the correct context...
I understand the issue one may have if they were all polls (as whoever's taking the poll can skew the sample group and the sample size to their liking).
But most of the 15 things cited in that article (such as half of the country making less than $27,520) were not polls, except for #2 and #4. The numbers were all based on raw measurements of EVERYONE in their respective groups.
Unfortunately that leaves out a broad swath of the population that are not smart enough, motivated enough, or otherwise able to do so or to earn/afford a degree.
To which you may say, "That's their problem." Which would be true, until 500,000 of them rise up and riot because they can't afford to eat. Or until they are all on some form of public assistance because they can't get a job.
The nice thing about having an ample demand for low-skill manual labor is almost anyone can support themselves in that type of environment. Not so in your scenario.
You bring up an important point that most posters simply don't or won't recognize. There are a lot of people who are just not smart enough to get through a minimum educational program. When the push in schools is for all graduates to be college or career-ready, the ones who can't hack it drop out. Now that graduation rate is tied to school ratings, the response is to get students into bogus online credit recovery so that students can "earn" a diploma. In truth, we're continuing to issue diplomas to students who can't read them or function on a very basic level. When these ill-prepared "adults" hit the work force, they have no knowledge, no skills, and no work ethic.
Every poster on City-Data is literate enough to be able to read and write (more or less) coherently. Every poster spends some of his disposable time on a rather nerdy pastime. There are millions of people in the country who aren't smart enough to do that. So how can they get ahead?
And every day thousands of Central Americans are pouring in over the border and they are not being deported -- so expect much higher levels of poverty --- they either need low paying jobs or lots of welfare handouts.
Welfare handouts need to be slashed so that those living on welfare "make" less than those working for minimum wage. As it is, there is no longer any incentive for people to work. Why should welfare queens live in $1000 a month apartments while someone working can afford only $500 a month?
"Education does NOT create jobs, and you would simply have more people with degrees expecting to have good middle class white collar jobs that do not exist."
Well pretty much most jobs DID become white collar or blue collar ones did require a degree. We don't even know what blue collar is anymore at this point.
"Over the past 20 years we have gutted our manufacturing and service jobs by offshoring them to the third world. Trade agreements have made this possible, corporations increased profits by paying workers fifty cents an hour to make goods and services to be sold to Americans."
That's to $2250 to $7400. Roughly $1.08/hr to $3.55/hr...not 50 cents..not even remotely close.
If this continues at this rate in another ten years about $11.66/hr This does not even factor in the costs of translation, shipping and taxes. Yes other countries do have taxes.
"We used to build our electronics, we made our clothing, we made our cars, we made our toys, we made our tools. Today all those things are all made overseas by wage slaves, and the Americans who used to build them are the ones you are suggesting "don't have the right skills, ambition, knowledge etc" "
Um we still make much of that. But you do have to understand when we make all of these things if they are made to last then there is no repeat business. Business cycles work on improvements. I have no doubt someone could lug out some Curtis Mathis TV they got from KMart in 1987 turn it on and it might look good. But the picture is nothing compared to a HDTV. I'm sure there's still people on phone lines for internet service but broadband is simply much better
"My fathers generation did not need college, they simply applied for and got jobs, and most could support a family on them. "
So they had no standards and because it was hiring in large groups it meant there was nothing "different' or unique. Therefore people could be replaced.
"Today both the man and woman must work, and when they do its for half of what one "bread winner" earned a generation ago."
Not really. You have to factor in productivity and all of the waste that occurred back then. 10 minutes to connect a long distance phone call vs skype around the world instantly. What people make means little to what they have access to. Being the richest man in a remote area often times doesn't mean much vs a place that is more urban with more access.
"I do not accept that education level and career planning are the problem, as I think the problem is obvious. Offshoring of jobs caused our situation, and we need to return to a protectionist tariff system in order to keep our manufacturing base in our nation."
Protectionism is not going to save jobs. If anything it hurts us because it means as companies pull out we lose jobs. We live in a information based economy which is now being on a lower marginal cost. That is the price of production is nothing. You make a movie and sell it online. There's no cost of selling 1 copy vs selling 10 or 10 million. Same with books, same with music. Manufacturing is more about just in time production and not massive amounts of the one fits all approach. We are generally consuming less because frankly we don't need as much. Does everyone *really* need a car when the majority now live in cities. Just because something is made does not specifically mean it will be sold. We already have protectionism in the form of the buy american act. Like it or not though but price is not the only factor in purchasing goods and services.
Besides looking at history it shows that even if you put tarrifs up they'd still end up hurting as they'll simply go to the cheapest part of the country. Many of the old mills down south that closed during the 1990's (Fieldcrest comes to mind) themselves were made and closed plenty of mills up north in the 1930's and 1940's. We didn't cry over it. We diversified the economy here for banking, healthcare and education. Manufacturing as limits, services on the other hand are a constant. I sell you a computer that's a one time purchase. You want internet service that's $50 a month forever. You want a fridge that's $600 once. You want food in it that's easily hundreds for a family a month. A medicine cabinet might be a certain amount but keeping it stocked is another.
"We just observed D day, and that brings to mind the real reason we won the world war. We out manufactured the Axis powers, they shot down a flying fortress, five more rolled off an assembly line in Detroit. They sunk a liberty ship, two more were built in Virginia. Our factory workers played as big a role in the victory as did the troops overseas. Could we do that today???? Are we going to ask the Chinese if they mind stopping the war so we can place an order with them for tanks???? If we have a war with the Chinese we will be in trouble. Heck you wont even be able to buy underware. Better start studying mandarin."
Underware? Fear of the unknown because you choose not to learn is not fear my friend. China is not going to attack the USA because frankly taking over a place means being accountable. Putin is quite dumb as now he has to figure out how to provide pensions to all the retirees in Crimea. The idea of one country taking over another serves little purpose. If China could not win a war with Vietnam what makes you think they would attack a larger and obviously more powerful country. The economies of the world are too interconnected for a significant conflict to emerge.
We still have manufacturing but if you think that you can just dump people that are unemployed in a factory that is humming and expect them to foot the bill for training it just doesn't work that way.
you have an old Nummi plant that employed 4,500 that is running with a different company now at 3,000. Like it or not but automation took the grunt work out of manufacturing.
Well pretty much most jobs DID become white collar or blue collar ones did require a degree. We don't even know what blue collar is anymore at this point.
Are you sure? I thought the definitions were pretty clear...
A blue-collar worker is a working class person who performs manual labor in US usage. Blue-collar work may involve skilled or unskilled manufacturing, mining, sanitation, custodian work, oil field, construction, mechanical, maintenance, technical installation and many other types of physical work. Often something is physically being built or maintained.
In many countries (like the United States, Italy or France), a white-collar worker is a person who performs professional, managerial, or administrative work. Typically, white-collar work is performed in an office or cubicle.
That said, I think the person's point was not so much that these jobs DO require a degree now, but at one point they didn't and there's no reason they should now, other than a for-profit business trying to get the best bang for its buck in labor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
Not really. The median manufacturing wage in China in 2000 was 50 cents an hour. Wages in China were 70% less in 2004 vs 2014 PAGE NOT FOUND
It has gone up 3.3 fold!
That's to $2250 to $7400. Roughly $1.08/hr to $3.55/hr...not 50 cents..not even remotely close.
If this continues at this rate in another ten years about $11.66/hr This does not even factor in the costs of translation, shipping and taxes. Yes other countries do have taxes.
I don't think the person's point was so much that there aren't ANY costs to do business in China, nor was their point that labor costs HAVEN'T increased AT ALL, but that labor costs and the overall cost to do business is still much lower in China than it is in America. While other countries may have taxes, they don't have the labor laws the US has, nor the government regulations the US has (for example, for many times throughout the year, people can't walk through cities in China without a gas mask, nor is it safe to even drink the tap water). A for-profit business of course would be foolish to not take advantage of these cost savings to the benefit of their shareholders and owners.
Quote:
Um we still make much of that. But you do have to understand when we make all of these things if they are made to last then there is no repeat business. Business cycles work on improvements. I have no doubt someone could lug out some Curtis Mathis TV they got from KMart in 1987 turn it on and it might look good. But the picture is nothing compared to a HDTV. I'm sure there's still people on phone lines for internet service but broadband is simply much better
When you say "we still make much of that", do you mean the actual HQs of the companies who make these things are still based in America, or that the actual production of the good still takes place in America? Also, for the actual production of the goods that still takes place in America, how much of it is still done by American workers versus a robot in 2014?
Also, what do you mean by "if they are made to last, then there is no repeat business?" How did the makers of electronics, clothes, tools and toys manage to remain profitable in the 1950s and 1960s when virtually all of the production of their goods was done in America by American workers? Would it be such a bad thing if for-profit businesses earned less money less frequently per good made in 2014?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
So they had no standards and because it was hiring in large groups it meant there was nothing "different' or unique. Therefore people could be replaced.
That had nothing to do with it.
Those who had the means and intellectual aptitude in the 1950s and 1960s would still find ways to increase their skills and knowledge, whether it was by studying skills trade through their high schools (when it was still funded by the taxpayers through public schools) or attending college. But because the demand of labor exceeded the supply (due to protectionist policies), those who chose not to increase their skills and knowledge (or those who didn't have the means to do so) didn't have to in order to earn a decent living.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
Not really. You have to factor in productivity and all of the waste that occurred back then. 10 minutes to connect a long distance phone call vs skype around the world instantly. What people make means little to what they have access to. Being the richest man in a remote area often times doesn't mean much vs a place that is more urban with more access.
You can't compare the efficiencies of the 1950s with the efficiencies of the 2014 to determine that productivity was wasted. Skype technology didn't exist in the 1950s, and waiting 10 minutes to have a long distance phone call connected was the fastest way to communicate.
As far as the bolded, how about you ask a homeless man in Detroit and Glenn Beck in his 6-foot tall brick-walled mansion if they would switch lives. Then get back with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
Protectionism is not going to save jobs. If anything it hurts us because it means as companies pull out we lose jobs. We live in a information based economy which is now being on a lower marginal cost. That is the price of production is nothing. You make a movie and sell it online. There's no cost of selling 1 copy vs selling 10 or 10 million. Same with books, same with music. Manufacturing is more about just in time production and not massive amounts of the one fits all approach. We are generally consuming less because frankly we don't need as much. Does everyone *really* need a car when the majority now live in cities. Just because something is made does not specifically mean it will be sold. We already have protectionism in the form of the buy american act. Like it or not though but price is not the only factor in purchasing goods and services.
Besides looking at history it shows that even if you put tarrifs up they'd still end up hurting as they'll simply go to the cheapest part of the country. Many of the old mills down south that closed during the 1990's (Fieldcrest comes to mind) themselves were made and closed plenty of mills up north in the 1930's and 1940's. We didn't cry over it. We diversified the economy here for banking, healthcare and education. Manufacturing as limits, services on the other hand are a constant. I sell you a computer that's a one time purchase. You want internet service that's $50 a month forever. You want a fridge that's $600 once. You want food in it that's easily hundreds for a family a month. A medicine cabinet might be a certain amount but keeping it stocked is another.
Protectionism will likely not save jobs now. By allowing our protectionist policies to become too laxed long ago, too many businesses have already invested too much money into the capital of foreign countries that they no longer NEED the US to order to remain profitable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
Underware? Fear of the unknown because you choose not to learn is not fear my friend. China is not going to attack the USA because frankly taking over a place means being accountable...If China could not win a war with Vietnam what makes you think they would attack a larger and obviously more powerful country. The economies of the world are too interconnected for a significant conflict to emerge.
True, no disagreements with you here. The US just better hope it can continue to pay for and support its massive military
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
We still have manufacturing but if you think that you can just dump people that are unemployed in a factory that is humming and expect them to foot the bill for training it just doesn't work that way.
Actually, we COULD do that. That's how it was done in the immediate wake of World War II. But there's no reason why a for-profit business would do that when there's a surplus in the supply of labor, and it has now become extremely cheap to automate many positions as now many businesses can use the extremely educated but extremely cheap labor in lightly-regulated India and Japan to make these robots.
The cost of living in various states and in different metro areas varies SO much that a average salary, is really quite meaningless. We live in an expensive, high tax state. Many of our residents are moving just over the border to the next state and commuting in for jobs now. Even taking into account the cost of fuel. The taxes are THAT expensive.
Emigrations there will always be some higher paying jobs. It will be mostly likely be 30% high paying jobs. Then other 70% will be low paying. There are still some good paying jobs left. But over the long haul they will be eliminated by technology offshoring and doing more with less. It will take 15 to 20 years to get to the point I am talking about. It will happen slowly. Business no longer sees the US as important. We are cashed out have little money to spend. We are a mature economy very little growth long term. They now look to sell to the new middle class in India China and the rest of the world. We are losing millions of jobs a year we lost 5 million in manufacturing alone between 2000 to 2007 due to automation. Lost 3.5 million back office jobs between 2007 to 2011 they were offshored. That is just two sectors now starting adding the rest. I am mean IT alone has loss tons of jobs to India. Now add in our last massive downturn. The jobs are not there. What new jobs are there do not pay well. We have hit a wall as technology goes you are right. Aids and cancer are going to kill you. And we are still using cars and airplanes. But it allows us to ship more and more jobs overseas. Or you get rid of your job to start with. Do more with less is the future. Americans have less and less discretionary income the dollar store and dollar tree do well for that reason. Sears not so much they need a middle class. Wages have been replaced by credit and payment plans.
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