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Here is a true story I just heard from a coworker regarding her daughter who a year ago finished up medical school, residency, and a couple fellowships after that. So she's been at her first actual position for a year now. She's in a sub-sub specialty and is a pediatric pathologist. In addition to being a doctor at that hospital she also does research and teaches at the medical school.
She had been advised to get a "contracts lawyer" to help her negotiate that first salary - I guess she did, and paid him big bucks to get her salary and she was okay with the result. Now, a year later a new guy gets hired - he has also only been out of school for a year, same school as she and no particularly high accolades. He shared with her his salary.....now mind you - he is NOT doing research and he is NOT teaching - it is DOUBLE her salary.
She went to the medical director and reminded her of all her responsibilities and then asked what the new guy was making - the medical director said she didn't know (!?) Really? So she told her she knew he was making x because he'd told her. Well, she got some kind of raise, I"m not sure what because her mom didn't say exactly but I got the impression it may have only brought her salary even with his, despite her many extra responsibilities.
The point is she even paid a lawyer good money and the LAWYER screwed her on top of the hospital low-balling her. I'm only glad she found out now before her entire was crippled, based on such a low starting salary that could have easily impacted all her future earnings.
The mom said she "didn't think that happened any more". Yes - wage discrimination DOES happen, even when you do all you can to prevent it.
well they might not value research/teaching as much. if he spent time seeing patients who brought in money instead. how much of his pay is from overtime/shift work that he is doing and she isnt because she is teaching/researching?
i can make $x while my salary is for $y because i can pick up hours. a lot of young doctors moonlight too
well they might not value research/teaching as much. if he spent time seeing patients who brought in money instead. how much of his pay is from overtime/shift work that he is doing and she isnt because she is teaching/researching?
i can make $x while my salary is for $y because i can pick up hours. a lot of young doctors moonlight too
I have no idea about overtime - this is strictly a difference in SALARY.
Yep, I have seen it myself at an old job. The old bookkeeper retired, she was making $80k. So my boss hired a new guy who was an accountant he got paid $120k. Well, he didn't work out and got let go. We get a new accountant, with more experience than the previous guy, she gets $85K. She eventually finds out and demands $100k at least. He says no, so she quit.
My boss was notorious for hiring men and paying a huge salary. I am talking about put in a high position and not knowing how to do their job. This other woman and I, would consistently get bothered by them to do these convoluted spreadsheets, that had no purpose, because they had no idea what they are suppose to be doing.
Here is a true story I just heard from a coworker regarding her daughter who a year ago finished up medical school, residency, and a couple fellowships after that. So she's been at her first actual position for a year now. She's in a sub-sub specialty and is a pediatric pathologist. In addition to being a doctor at that hospital she also does research and teaches at the medical school.
She had been advised to get a "contracts lawyer" to help her negotiate that first salary - I guess she did, and paid him big bucks to get her salary and she was okay with the result. Now, a year later a new guy gets hired - he has also only been out of school for a year, same school as she and no particularly high accolades. He shared with her his salary.....now mind you - he is NOT doing research and he is NOT teaching - it is DOUBLE her salary.
She went to the medical director and reminded her of all her responsibilities and then asked what the new guy was making - the medical director said she didn't know (!?) Really? So she told her she knew he was making x because he'd told her. Well, she got some kind of raise, I"m not sure what because her mom didn't say exactly but I got the impression it may have only brought her salary even with his, despite her many extra responsibilities.
The point is she even paid a lawyer good money and the LAWYER screwed her on top of the hospital low-balling her. I'm only glad she found out now before her entire was crippled, based on such a low starting salary that could have easily impacted all her future earnings.
The mom said she "didn't think that happened any more". Yes - wage discrimination DOES happen, even when you do all you can to prevent it.
What cave has she been living in? It's been all over the news lately. From the entertainment profession to the business world; in print, Social Media and on TV women have been talking about this and trying to find ways to remedy the situation. It's even a topic the presidential candidates are discussing.
There is just no excuse for someone being so out of touch these days.
Here is a true story I just heard from a coworker regarding her daughter who a year ago finished up medical school, residency, and a couple fellowships after that. So she's been at her first actual position for a year now. She's in a sub-sub specialty and is a pediatric pathologist. In addition to being a doctor at that hospital she also does research and teaches at the medical school.
She had been advised to get a "contracts lawyer" to help her negotiate that first salary - I guess she did, and paid him big bucks to get her salary and she was okay with the result. Now, a year later a new guy gets hired - he has also only been out of school for a year, same school as she and no particularly high accolades. He shared with her his salary.....now mind you - he is NOT doing research and he is NOT teaching - it is DOUBLE her salary.
She went to the medical director and reminded her of all her responsibilities and then asked what the new guy was making - the medical director said she didn't know (!?) Really? So she told her she knew he was making x because he'd told her. Well, she got some kind of raise, I"m not sure what because her mom didn't say exactly but I got the impression it may have only brought her salary even with his, despite her many extra responsibilities.
The point is she even paid a lawyer good money and the LAWYER screwed her on top of the hospital low-balling her. I'm only glad she found out now before her entire was crippled, based on such a low starting salary that could have easily impacted all her future earnings.
The mom said she "didn't think that happened any more". Yes - wage discrimination DOES happen, even when you do all you can to prevent it.
there is no such thing as wage discrimination. Hourly, everyone makes the same. Salary wise, its up to you to negotiate it. If you don't have the common sense to negotiate YOUR OWN SALARY, then in my mind, you don't deserve it.
Not necessarily screwed by either. I'd have to know a lot more than what's been shared here. The clinic structure and work RVU's factor in - basically the value of the work the doc is producing. Reimbursement rates factor in as they are negotiated by the clinic entity - do their paychecks come from the same entity? Don't assume! How many hours is she doing clinical pathology work vs him? Will they do the EXACT same type of pathology? Again RVU's have different values which translate into different levels of compensation.
If she's doing teaching AND research, and he is not, then he is producing more work than she is is terms of reimbursements. At a minimum I'd say he's working one more day of clinic than her. A new or recent grad minimally would have 1/2 day each of teaching and research if they are faculty. But most likely more like a day a week of each. This brings her to 3 days doing pathology vs his 5.
Employment Law attorney's, which is who she should have seen, (and specifically a Physician focused attorney ) will look for things in the contract such as non compete clause, renewable annually or more, reimbursement rates, schedule, notice to terminate contract, physician expenses, CME, vacation, tax structure of the entity as it affects the doc's compensation, and more. While they can compare her contract to someone of the same profile as her to know if compensation is in line, all things must be equal - geography, etc for a fair analysis. And, since the Affordable Care Act (Obama Care), compensation and reimbursement rates have changed. It's not easy to compare compensation from entity to entity even in the same geo area as reimbursement rates can be different. If the entity is in a growth phase, salaries might jump up - this could have been one factor IF they are both doing the same clinic hours and profile.
At the end of the day, teaching doesn't pay as well as clinic work. Research is pretty similar unless its a hot, sexy type of research with available grant funds and the researchers are world-renowned.
Hope this helps!
I have a bit of experience with employment contracts for physicians and I guess I am not seeing where this individual has been treated unfairly, particularly with regards to her sex. Seems as though the incoming physician with whom she is comparing herself just negotiated a better starting guaranteed salary. All these negotiations are just that, negotiations, and the hiring entity doesn't always offer the same thing to everyone. Usually, they have a starting point, and it's incumbent on the potential employee to better his/her circumstances. So, maybe the new guy did a better job at that than she did. And if this situation is brought to light, maybe her Dept Chair/Senior partner or whomever will offer her an equity increase and maybe they won't. Sometimes these Departments and practices are focused only on recruitment and fail to do what's necessary to retain (like lots of employers).
At the end of the day, you really have to advocate for yourself in a contract. And, yes, you should definitely get an employment law attorney to help you review contracts prospectively (ideally, one located in the same geographic location as the practice or system itself). It usually runs about $400-$500 and it's worth it. But, while they can offer good insight and suggestions on issues such as non competes (which are almost always standard now), goodwill, duration etc, they usually know nothing about the particulars of what is reasonable with regards to RVU/collection targets, compensation etc. If they happen to have helped physicians in the same specialty before, then maybe they have some insight, but usually not. The best source for what is reasonable with respect to clinical, teaching and research responsibilities is to talk to other physician colleagues.
After having to negotiate several physician contracts over the past 8 years, we've seen them run the gamut from those that were very heavily weighted to benefit the physician themselves to ones that are boilerplate templates for a large system and you can either take it or leave it. And, we have also had the experience that like any employer, large medical institutions don't see the forest through the trees. They focus on what they have to do to recruit and get someone in the door, without regards to long term equity issues, and then they end up with the situation described above- an internal equity problem that they may or may not fix.
Not necessarily screwed by either. I'd have to know a lot more than what's been shared here. The clinic structure and work RVU's factor in - basically the value of the work the doc is producing. Reimbursement rates factor in as they are negotiated by the clinic entity - do their paychecks come from the same entity? Don't assume! How many hours is she doing clinical pathology work vs him? Will they do the EXACT same type of pathology? Again RVU's have different values which translate into different levels of compensation.
If she's doing teaching AND research, and he is not, then he is producing more work than she is is terms of reimbursements. At a minimum I'd say he's working one more day of clinic than her. A new or recent grad minimally would have 1/2 day each of teaching and research if they are faculty. But most likely more like a day a week of each. This brings her to 3 days doing pathology vs his 5.
Employment Law attorney's, which is who she should have seen, (and specifically a Physician focused attorney ) will look for things in the contract such as non compete clause, renewable annually or more, reimbursement rates, schedule, notice to terminate contract, physician expenses, CME, vacation, tax structure of the entity as it affects the doc's compensation, and more. While they can compare her contract to someone of the same profile as her to know if compensation is in line, all things must be equal - geography, etc for a fair analysis. And, since the Affordable Care Act (Obama Care), compensation and reimbursement rates have changed. It's not easy to compare compensation from entity to entity even in the same geo area as reimbursement rates can be different. If the entity is in a growth phase, salaries might jump up - this could have been one factor IF they are both doing the same clinic hours and profile.
At the end of the day, teaching doesn't pay as well as clinic work. Research is pretty similar unless its a hot, sexy type of research with available grant funds and the researchers are world-renowned.
Hope this helps!
Thanks....yes, they're both doing pediatric pathology - IN THE SAME HOSPITAL. Not talking about rural Alabama vs. NYC!
I don't know how many clinic hours she is putting in but she's definitely doing more research time than teaching...which you say research should be similar to clinic. She's working far more than 40 hours a week - probably 60 or more from the sound of it. I'm sure she knows the score in terms of what is valued the most and she'd not be as ticked if the guy was putting in double the clinic hours she was while she was sitting home.
She's single and putting in tons of hours so THAT can't be blamed. Even if it was just a matter of 3 days of clinic vs. 5 days that doesn't compute to half the pay since there is SOME compensation associated with teaching and research even if not as much. There's more amiss than that - and her complaining did get her a helluva raise so it certainly was not groundless.
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