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I think you're just as biased as the people you're complaining about, no better and no worse. I often end up taking management's side, but I do it hoping to get both sides POV into the discussion. There were many people VERY up in arms about the United incident before they knew anything about the situation. I watched a couple threads where early posters assumed all sorts of "facts" that were NOT true, and were easily and quickly disproved. It was a horrible situation that could have been handled better (hindsight is a wonderful thing), but there was legitimate blame to go around for United, the aviation police and the passenger who was forcibly removed.
How am I just as biased as the people I'm complaining about? As I've said before, higher ups have MUCH more incentive to lie and protect themselves because they have a lot more to lose, so they should be held to a higher standard that the average worker who has nothing to gain and nobody to screw over by doing so. Please tell me how I am "just as biased" because I don't see. Hold the authority figures to a much higher standard than the little guy, why is that such a bad thing?
How am I just as biased as the people I'm complaining about? As I've said before, higher ups have MUCH more incentive to lie and protect themselves because they have a lot more to lose, so they should be held to a higher standard that the average worker who has nothing to gain and nobody to screw over by doing so. Please tell me how I am "just as biased" because I don't see. Hold the authority figures to a much higher standard than the little guy, why is that such a bad thing?
You're right, and anyone with a different view is wrong, it's simpler than I thought. I'll take one more pass at it, but then I won't waste your time further on your thread.
Believe it or not, most folks in management do live up to a higher standard than the average worker, but they're not news - all you hear about are the bad apples, and there are some, too many in fact. But evidently you don't want to hear about good management, or managements side. If you think management is always wrong or biased and don't want to hear that POV, you are just as biased.
And believe it not, while most workers want to do a good days work for a fair days pay, there are also workers who do as little as they can get away with and game the system whenever they get a chance. They force management to waste time with them, to write restrictive policies for the wayward few, and make life more difficult for managers and workers. When I was in management, the best workers used to come to me in private, and say "can't you do something about so and so!" I did do something, but all that time and effort could have been spent way more productively.
There are two sides to every story. Sometimes workers are unfairly maligned, and sometimes management is unfairly maligned, and sometimes both share the blame. A manager always faces choices between what's best for the worker, the customer and shareholders (where applicable) - and may or may not have to consider upper management views. It's not as easy as people who've never had that responsibility think. When the chips were down, I had workers who would come to me in private and tell me 'boy, I am glad I don't have your job today!' But some folks never get that.
You cited the United incident, was that a cut and dried event - or did a lot of people jump to conclusions refusing to hear both sides?
There are some people in this world that seem to automatically take the side of the authority figure in any dispute, like for instance the United Airlines story of them forcibly removing a passenger who was already seated and that they had no just cause for doing so. These people will defend the right of the airline to "remove any passenger they want" without questioning why or if there was a justified reason in doing so. It's just "they have the right to do it, and you have no right to complain."
It's the same issue in the workplace. I've worked with several people who will always take the side of management in a dispute with the workers, regardless of what the issue is. For some reason they always feel like they need to side with the authority figure, maybe out of fear of not "rocking the boat" or losing their jobs, or maybe they are just too cowardly to stand up for themselves. I'm going to always side with the workers over management in a dispute, because as far as I'm concerned the person in power deserves to be held to a much higher standard and be subject to much greater scrutiny, because they are in a position to screw a lot more people over. And they also have much greater motivation to screw the workers over if it benefits them directly.
you're right, and anyone with a different view is wrong, it's simpler than i thought. I'll take one more pass at it, but then i won't waste your time further on your thread.
Believe it or not, most folks in management do live up to a higher standard than the average worker, but they're not news - all you hear about are the bad apples, and there are some, too many in fact. But evidently you don't want to hear about good management, or managements side. If you think management is always wrong or biased and don't want to hear that pov, you are just as biased.
i'm absolutely willing to hear both sides of the arguement, it is normally management with the attitude of "it is the way it is, and if you don't like it there's the door" most are not willing to hear what their employees have to say because most view their employees as "disposable" and not worth listening to because "i could have someone else in here to do your job tomorrow if you don't like it."
and believe it not, while most workers want to do a good days work for a fair days pay, there are also workers who do as little as they can get away with and game the system whenever they get a chance.
They force management to waste time with them, to write restrictive policies for the wayward few, and make life more difficult for managers and workers. When i was in management, the best workers used to come to me in private, and say "can't you do something about so and so!" i did do something, but all the time and effort could have been spent way more productively.
yes and there are also managers who want to work their workers to death while paying them the bare minimum that they can. So there are still two sides to this as well. And yes, i do believe that lazy employees should be talked to, and if they don't change then they need to go. But i think slave driving managers/owners that want to pay the bare minimum are a much bigger problem than lazy, gold bricking workers that don't want to do anything.
there are two sides to every story. Sometimes workers are unfairly maligned, and sometimes management is unfairly maligned, and sometimes both share the some blame. You cited the united incident, was that a cut and dried event - or did a lot of people jump to conclusions?
as far as i'm concerned, it was a cut and dry incident. The man was already seated on the plane, and anyone left standing without a seat should've been taken off and made to take the next flight. No one should be forced out of a seat they are already in to make room for someone that the airline wants to be on that plane. First seated, first flown in my book.
My point is why do some people automatically stick up for and respect an authority figure, regardless of what they do? Why is there is blind respect for authority.
the funny thing is people don't know what rights the employer has in treating employees a certain way. all the sudden , johnny the mop boy knows about rights!
the reason other employees side with management is because of the bogus propaganda fed to them by their employer. Middle finger to management that is not fair across the board, or allows people to get away with stuff, because they are "in the crowd". "I am a company Man" is the biggest BS i have ever heard. Like your job is really secure because you side with management. you are not one of them, and it is them against me.
to hear some co workers talk, like they are actually doing something Good, by defending the MAN. So , to answer the OP, people blow and inhale alot of hot air, and feel special defending Management over the little guy. It is the same as defending a political candidate, like all the sudden,you are knowledgeable of politics , and can make a intelligent opinion on them. just GTFOH!
the funny thing is people don't know what rights the employer has in treating employees a certain way. all the sudden , johnny the mop boy knows about rights!
the reason other employees side with management is because of the bogus propaganda fed to them by their employer. Middle finger to management that is not fair across the board, or allows people to get away with stuff, because they are "in the crowd". "I am a company Man" is the biggest BS i have ever heard. Like your job is really secure because you side with management. you are not one of them, and it is them against me.
to hear some co workers talk, like they are actually doing something Good, by defending the MAN. So , to answer the OP, people blow and inhale alot of hot air, and feel special defending Management over the little guy. It is the same as defending a political candidate, like all the sudden,you are knowledgeable of politics , and can make a intelligent opinion on them. just GTFOH!
I think that you're agreeing with me, but to be honest I really can't tell.
I think that you're agreeing with me, but to be honest I really can't tell.
totally agree with you. Management has to give a fair shake, and has to follow the law, not some policy handbook, that they choose to point to, and interpret how/when they see fit. they will quote a line and use it out of context, to their advantage. they will make an innocent mistake, into a white collar crime, and fire you for it. they will shut down a department, only to re open with lessor paid staff. they will permit /encourage their supervisors to do whatever they want, as long as the money gets made.
Supervisors are generally scrubs , who are given the position because they like to boss. low level Managers are hired off the street, and put on the polish, to look important, like the exec. the exec dont give an F about the little guy, or the supervisor, all they care for is their bonus, and how much more free stuff they can get.
If i am the little guy, the little guy will get that pass, unless the little guy is a schmoozer , with a knife. The little guy gets a pass, and my back, against adverse actions.
It is much more complex than that. First, there is a big difference between Customer versus Supplier issues and Employee versus Employer issues. The Customer versus supplier issues are irrelevant in this forum. If you want to chat about those matters, you should post in another forum.
Second, with Employee versus Employer issues there are actually at least three different perspectives: The blind "I always side with management" perspective; the blind "I always side with the workers" perspective; and the nuanced "It's more complex than simplistic all-or-nothing propositions" perspectives.
The obligations of employees to employers and of employers to employees are among the most comprehensively defined and documented obligations among all relationships within society, so the actual incidence of the kind of confused mess we saw with the United Airlines situation this past week in reality happens much less often. With regard to "standing up for themselves", though, there are at least as many instances of employees failing to so as there are instances of employees insisting on privileges that they are not owed. Quite often you see employees displaying immature expressions of frustration that they don't have the kind of control over their employment situation that they wish, and more generally that employers have so much more power in our economy due to more than a generation of changes to laws, regulations, and precedents ripping power from workers and deliberately giving it to corporations. What's even more troubling is when you dig deeper into these scenarios and realize that some of the most immature expressions of this come from employees who effectively work against their own interests in other aspects of their lives.
The unshakable reality is that there has been a definitive shift in society, fostered by corporations but agreed to by the citizens, toward employers being entitled to more and employees being entitled to less, which accounts for why we see more of the employees acting badly scenarios than we see employers acting badly scenarios. When you've stacked the situation so much to your own advantage already, you really don't need to push that hard to get your way with legitimacy.
The question is whether people really want this to change. You see a lot of people beating their chests about this unfairness, but again there's that insidious angle wherein so many of them are working against their own interests in other aspects of their lives. It's hard to really say what people really want. As much as I want things to get better and better for employees, the trend is clearly in the opposite direction, has been for over a generation (as I alluded to earlier), and showing no sign of any real change on the way.
employees keep putting people in office that work against them, its as simple as that, the govt defines the power ballance for employees.
I think that the only way we can force employers to change is denial of service. When people will no longer work for a company due to their business practices, they will be forced to change to survive or they will go out of business. But as long as there are still sheep willing to work for crappy businesses that don't care about the worker, they have no incentive to change.
The attitude of "If you don't like it here, I could have someone here to replace you tomorrow" is pervasive, but if you treat employees like that while paying them the bare minimum that you can, it's no wonder why people don't stay with companies for 20+ years like they used to. Every worker is viewed as a disposable commodity, who they want to work as hard as they can while paying them the least that they can. At some point, doesn't it cost more time and energy to keep training new employees rather than try to keep the ones you already have? Most companies are so short-sighted that they fail to see this.
People that I'm talking about will defend a businesses "right" to these practices by saying "If you don't like it, go work somewhere else." I'm sorry but that is not the way you handle the grievences of an employee. You here them out, listen to what they have to say, and then give them a logical explanation of why you can or can't do what they are asking of you. It shouldn't just be "Do what I said because I said so or you're fired" I will love the day when these companies are struggling to find and keep workers because they have screwed themselves over so badly that no one will work for them. They will go out of business and hopefully go bankrupt, which is exactly what they deserve.
As far as employees "working against their own interests in other aspects of their lives" could you give me a few examples of that, because I'm not sure what you're meaning?
No they wont, they will get a bail out and continue on their same practices. Mega corps dont have any accountability to anyone. They get favorable govt decisions (most notably the failure of the govt to act and act with a vengance on anti trust laws) so they can snuff out any potential competition before it even gets off the ground. That way they are the only gig in town and then we get what we have all been seeing.
And no one seems to care about anti trust, govt protection of patent rights and intellectual property for the individual and not the mega corp. And people dont care, they just keep voting it in until they are standing around a burn barrel in a homeless camp.
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