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People have this idea that if workers have any recourse to hold their employer accountable, that they will just become lazy and demand more pay/benefits for less work. I hardly ever hear anyone complaining that companies want to pay you less and work you more, because a lot people have the idea of "It's their company, and they can run it however they want, you don't have to work for them". Yes, that's true, but if we don't incentivize them to change, it will just get worse and worse. I'm against the people at the top having absolute power to do as they please without any accountability to the workforce whatsoever. There needs to be checks and balances so that one side cannot get out of control. Take the power out of the hands of the despots (managers/owners/CEO's, etc.) and return it to the workers, because without them, they wouldn't have a successful company, because they do all the real work.
I'm just wondering why I hear so many anti-union jokes and thoughts, while hardly ever hearing anything from the flipside? Maybe you guys have an answer?
Well, there are always lazy workers, union and non-union, however, lazy worker sin a union have the union to protect them, and it seems often the union will dump all energy into doing so. A lazy worker not in the union has no such protection, and are terminated, transferred, etc.
After years and years, the number of lazy employees build up, because there is little turn over, so a stereotype is born.
"Power to the workers" makes no sense, the company can and have ultimately closed up shop and left, and those workers are left without a job at all.
Unions would do themselves a service if they quit going out of their way to protect the inept.
Location: In a city within a state where politicians come to get their PHDs in Corruption
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy12345678
People have this idea that if workers have any recourse to hold their employer accountable, that they will just become lazy and demand more pay/benefits for less work. I hardly ever hear anyone complaining that companies want to pay you less and work you more, because a lot people have the idea of "It's their company, and they can run it however they want, you don't have to work for them". Yes, that's true, but if we don't incentivize them to change, it will just get worse and worse. I'm against the people at the top having absolute power to do as they please without any accountability to the workforce whatsoever. There needs to be checks and balances so that one side cannot get out of control. Take the power out of the hands of the despots (managers/owners/CEO's, etc.) and return it to the workers, because without them, they wouldn't have a successful company, because they do all the real work.
I'm just wondering why I hear so many anti-union jokes and thoughts, while hardly ever hearing anything from the flipside? Maybe you guys have an answer?
Are you really expecting any serious, adult conversation from this post of yours? I ask because you seem to use the same type of logic demonizing ownership/management of the company, while at the same time arguing against the same logic that is being used to do the same to the unions?
Well, there are always lazy workers, union and non-union, however, lazy worker sin a union have the union to protect them, and it seems often the union will dump all energy into doing so. A lazy worker not in the union has no such protection, and are terminated, transferred, etc.
After years and years, the number of lazy employees build up, because there is little turn over, so a stereotype is born.
"Power to the workers" makes no sense, the company can and have ultimately closed up shop and left, and those workers are left without a job at all.
Unions would do themselves a service if they quit going out of their way to protect the inept.
The people that hire us need to know that they are accountable and don't have free reign to just do whatever they want without question or discussion. That is what I mean by "power to the workers", put them on an equal playing field when it comes to decision making, and don't let owners/managers walk all over the workforce because they are in a position of "authority".
Are you really expecting any serious, adult conversation from this post of yours? I ask because you seem to use the same type of logic demonizing ownership/management of the company, while at the same time arguing against the same logic that is being used to do the same to the unions?
I do expect a serious, adult conversation. My main point of the post is that no authority should go unchecked and unquestioned, whether they be manager/owner of a company, or anyone else in a position of "power" for that matter. The thought process now is "if there's anything you don't like about the company you work for, you have no right to complain about the way they run things, you should just be thankful that they gave you a job in the first place" Basically you should eternally kiss their ass and never speak up on anything because "that's biting the hand that feeds you". No, workers need a recourse to hold the employer accountable besides "if you don't like, go work somewhere else."
The people that hire us need to know that they are accountable and don't have free reign to just do whatever they want without question or discussion. That is what I mean by "power to the workers", put them on an equal playing field when it comes to decision making, and don't let owners/managers walk all over the workforce because they are in a position of "authority".
Lol, equal playing field when it comes to decisions? That is the purpose of management, you are essentially stating you want everyone to be managers, it is not happening and a company would never be able to function like that.
Everyone has some input into the decision making tree, and that is all funneled upward to the person who makes the final decision. That is about the extent of everyone's input into decision making, no matter the position.
There are laws in place that keep companies from walking all over workers, but being a jerk is not against the law. Yes, I do think some laws need improved while others weakened or done away with; but I am really finding difficulty in determining what you exactly want. This jsut seems like a rant against management and nothing more.
Lol, equal playing field when it comes to decisions? That is the purpose of management, you are essentially stating you want everyone to be managers, it is not happening and a company would never be able to function like that.
Everyone has some input into the decision making tree, and that is all funneled upward to the person who makes the final decision. That is about the extent of everyone's input into decision making, no matter the position.
There are laws in place that keep companies from walking all over workers, but being a jerk is not against the law. Yes, I do think some laws need improved while others weakened or done away with; but I am really finding difficulty in determining what you exactly want. This jsut seems like a rant against management and nothing more.
I want employees to have a recourse to redress grievances with their employers besides "If you don't like it, go work somewhere else". If management refuses to give in, and enough workers are in favor of it, the workers simply refuse to work until their demands are meant, without fear of being fired do to not being in a union. Management needs to know they are accountable to us, not the other way around. They won't be a manager for long if they can't get people to work for them. I want to be able to force companies with bad practices out of business through denial of service if they refuse to remedy them.
What laws do you think need to be improved? And which ones need to be weakened or gotten rid of?
Location: In a city within a state where politicians come to get their PHDs in Corruption
2,907 posts, read 2,068,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy12345678
I do expect a serious, adult conversation. My main point of the post is that no authority should go unchecked and unquestioned, whether they be manager/owner of a company, or anyone else in a position of "power" for that matter. The thought process now is "if there's anything you don't like about the company you work for, you have no right to complain about the way they run things, you should just be thankful that they gave you a job in the first place" Basically you should eternally kiss their ass and never speak up on anything because "that's biting the hand that feeds you". No, workers need a recourse to hold the employer accountable besides "if you don't like, go work somewhere else."
You don't have any right to complain. Someone's business is their own private property, whether you like it or not. You wouldn't want someone to come to your house and tell you to change the color of your siding just because they don't like it, would you?
Workers have the same recourse as businesses do. It's called offer competitive services/products that satisfy the needs of the end user, in workers case--their employer. You seem not to want to compete, or adjust your services to the needs of the market. That isn't your employer's fault, it's yours.
You don't have any right to complain. Someone's business is their own private property, whether you like it or not. You wouldn't want someone to come to your house and tell you to change the color of your siding just because they don't like it, would you?
Workers have the same recourse as businesses do. It's called offer competitive services/products that satisfy the needs of the end user, in workers case--their employer. You seem not to want to compete, or adjust your services to the needs of the market. That isn't your employer's fault, it's yours.
I have every right to complain about whatever I want, everyone always has a right to complain, it's called "freedom of speech". So they shouldn't have to hear any other input besides their own because "Their business is their own private property" ? I'm not saying they have to listen and follow everything I say, but I do have a right to speak up and say something if I don't agree with what they're doing. What makes YOU think "I don't have any right to complain". What reasoning do you have to hold that position?
They won't have a business for long if people refuse to work for them or won't purchase their products/services. That is how you change business practices that you don't agree with. And if enough people get behind it, they will either be forced to change or they will die, and that's exactly what they deserve.
You seem to be one of those people that think "It's NEVER the businesses fault, because the owner/manager of a business never does ANYTHING wrong or that you can complain about, it's ALWAYS the fault of the worker who thinks he's entitled to have his thoughts heard and addressed. HAHA, you have no rights but to shut up and stop complaining or go work somewhere else, this is MY company and I'll run it however I want, and you have no right to tell me otherwise." I'm sure you would take up for a company that hires illegal workers to save costs on labor, instead of blaming them for undercutting the American worker, because, in your eyes, every choice a company ever makes is right because companies do no wrong.
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
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In a past position I supervised union members, and yes, the unions did do their best to defend incompetent and lazy employees, even those caught drunk on the job. While it may take a little more time having to meet with the shop stewards, any good manager can still get rid of an employee. It's just a matter of applying progressive discipline and documenting carefully. My current employees are non-union, and it's really just the same. Good ones are kept, the best have promotional opportunities, and those that cannot do the work are let go. The only real difference is negotiating union contracts, fortunately there is a labor relations department to handle that.
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