What will it take for Americans to WAKE UP and protest offshore outsourcing and H/L Visas??? (debt, 401k)

[kek1993]

This started 10 years ago, with NAFTA, and when companies realized that outsourcing call centers to India, other places meant big bucks. When people call about their EBT card, or UI benefit card, ironically, they are usually talking to someone in a call center that is based in India, did you realize that? Not when you call about the beneffits, that is still based here, thank gosh, but when you call regarding the pin number on card, or balance information, you are dealing with the vendor, usually Wachovia bank. Like the irony? You are calling on your benefits, because you lost your job, to the very people who are part of the reason you are unemployed.

[f_m]

Originally Posted by DoctorWho

We hear over and over of the jobs "lost." We don't hear about the gains that occur over time. What happens to an economy as it develops? Jobs shift from simple production to more advanced services (as discussed in the Wal Mart thread).

The key issue is that the capability of people more or less matches a bell curve. The average person has an average level of abilities, and fewer people will have higher than average skills. So more advanced services is not in the reach of the average person, so those jobs do not support the average person, which is the largest population. That's why when most jobs that were out there were production factory jobs, the average person could get a job that supported a middle class lifestyle.

[I_Love_LI_but]

Originally Posted by f_m

The key issue is that the capability of people more or less matches a bell curve. The average person has an average level of abilities, and fewer people will have higher than average skills. So more advanced services is not in the reach of the average person, so those jobs do not support the average person, which is the largest population. That's why when most jobs that were out there were production factory jobs, the average person could get a job that supported a middle class lifestyle.

It started that way, losing production jobs. Now offshore outsourcing and guest workers are cannibalizing skilled and college-educated Americans out of jobs.

For a quick overview, read this. It is a few years old but explains the basics and starts with the production jobs being lost and goes on to discuss how American college graduates are being affected:

http://vdare.org/roberts/mfg_jobs.htm

[RedNC]

Forget about going after the government, they are as guilty as the corporations that bought them.
The only way to solve this problem is by American citizens taking back control of this country.
Only buy products made in America by American workers. The internet can be the resource for researching manufacturing origins. It won't be easy at first, but once started it will build on itself. Rich people don't create jobs demand does. When American made products are the only ones in demand that demand will be filled by American workers. Jobs will be created faster than they can be filled and wages will rise.
Americans use to be proud of this country and part of that pride was buying American made products. Why did we let greedy corporations that we once worked for take that pride away?

[yellowsnow]

I was a technology worker for years and it's been very obvious to anyone in tech that outsourcing/visas has killed that industry. Why hire an American when you can buy someone from a 3rd world country for much less? Then they started outsourcing all the customer service jobs. Now you have to talk to India to change your cable TV.

People are sheep and they tend to believe whatever their 'leaders' say. And who are our 'leaders'? Could it be they are the wealthy employers who benefit from these practices? I don't think the public ever figures it out till it starts costing them a lot of money. Too bad we have sold out our futures to Pakistan, Philippines, wherever. You and I never care when it's the people down the street losing their jobs. We do nothing. Then by the time it happens to us, it's too late. Perhaps what we should be mourning here is the death of activism.

Here's the saddest part of all. A few years ago during the Bush administration, I remember seeing Laura Bush dedicating a school in India paid for by American taxpayer dollars. The school was teaching Indian people how to do our jobs. Don't get worked up over the fact it was a Bush. They have all done it in recent history. Liberals, Conservatives, Republicans, Democrats. Somehow they all seem to think the way to save the world is to turn America into a 3rd world country. Looks like we gave them their wish.

Worried about terrorism? Guess what? We educated the terrorists and now more than a few of them are working in our outsourced industries. Most likely tech. Well, we can't walk through an airport anymore but we will send our financial/banking records to Indonesia. If I were a terrorist, I know where I would be and what I would be doing. Since all those good jobs have been outsourced for so long, I wonder if we would be able to put Humpty Dumpty back together again? And don't even bother trying to buy made in America. It doesn't exist anymore. How long would it take us to gear up and produce our own goods again? Could we do it fast enough if we had to? I don't know.

[Naturen]

Thanks for the well written posts! I've been thinking and frustrated with the USA outsourcing our jobs. I have had 2 very negative experiences when I sought technical assistance for my computer and printer. Both times it involved my call being outsourced to ?India? (or at least a person with Indian accent). What do I do now to revolt: 1) I check the labels on just about everything I buy to determine if it is made in the USA (if I can avoid buying something that is not made in the USA, I do not buy it), 2) When I make contact with a corporation for technical assistance, I ask what country are you in.

Is anything made in the USA these days? My computer, cell phone, and god knows what else is made outside the USA. The USA to needs to make HIGH QUALITY PRODUCTS (i.e. automobiles, computers....) so that we can become competitive in trade, to keep our $$$ here to employ US citizens, and so that if one wants to buy a high quality cell phone... that is not manufactured abroad, we have the choice to buy American.

[kek1993]

Kansas City SmartPort: America's Inland Port Solution

Look at this, we are building a "superport" in Kansas City, with tax dollars, to take jobs AWAY from Amercian workers. Although, I did see the free training available for inventory control specialists looks interesting for someone who is looking for work now. They are offering free training, and KC is not a bad place to live. Part of the NAFTA bait and switch, quietly happening, and once we see what really happened, it will be too late.

[DoctorWho]

Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but

^^^

I will get back to you with a more comprehensive response.

However, UNREGULATED markets, started during the Reagan presidency, are what brought us into this mess by allowing the "invisible hand" to run wild. We need to take drastic measures to reign in corporate greed and repair our economy, at least on a temporary basis.

The last thing we need is "drastic" measures, which are inevitably rushed through with little consideration for the consequences beyond what is, on the surface, a good idea. Ronald Reagan pushed for deregulation and less regulation and guess what? That was when we experienced some of our strongest economic growth. What happened since? 8 years of Clinton and 8 years of Bush leading to more regulation, more government, and more spending.

MORE regulation isn't the answer. Better regulation, perhaps. But not more. Incidentally, who regulates? Government. Is the government more efficient than the private sector in ANYTHING?

Originally Posted by 7 Wishes

From what I know, the Economist, while historically agreeing with you, this time around pretty much agrees with the OP (yes, this article is from March but its the perfect example the Economist's view right now):

World economy: The jobs crisis | The Economist

And while too much regulation is a bad thing, I agree with the OP that too little caused this mess. Also, what's different this time is in terms of the kinds of jobs, the rest of the world is at a level playing field with us, but at a much lower standard of living on average (which allows for the much lower salaries that draws our jobs there). Can you imagine an IT person making $15K/year here? Did "professional" jobs really exist much in the Third World in the 1930s (or the 1970s for that matter)?

Yes, there will be "advanced" jobs we don't know about, but probably not enough for everyone, and that's the issue here. Yes, there could be giant U.S. companies 25 years from now that we can't imagine today (the way someone in 1975 couldn't think of Microsoft or Amazon.com, etc.) but the difference this time is a good chunk of job growth from them will NOT occur in the US (or much of the developed world for that matter) until the day that the "professional", urban Third World catches up with our standard of living, and I think we'll have a "lost" generation (or more likely 2 or 3) before that happens.

As a matter of fact, the article DOESN'T agree with the OP. It does mention protection for workers in the form of unemployment benefits perhaps, but not in terms of protecting jobs from outsourcing:

Over the next couple of years, politicians will have to perform a difficult policy U-turn; for, in the long term, they need flexible labour markets. That will mean abolishing job-subsidy programmes, taking away protected workers’ privileges and making it easier for businesses to restructure by laying people off. Countries such as Japan, with two-tier workforces in which an army of temporary workers with few protections toil alongside mollycoddled folk with many, will need to narrow that disparity by making the latter easier to fire.

The euphemism for that is “flexibility”. The bare truth is that the more easily jobs can be destroyed, the more easily new ones can be created. The programmes that help today, by keeping people in existing jobs, will tomorrow become a drag on the great adjustment that lies ahead. As time goes by, spending on keeping people in old jobs will need to be cut, and replaced with spending on training them for new ones. Governments will have to switch from policies to support demand to policies to make their labour markets more flexible. That is going to require fancy political footwork; but politicians will have to perform those steps, because if they fail to, they will stifle growth.

Originally Posted by kemcnyc

Love this thread... thanks for posting it.

I COMPLETELY agree that the U.S. needs to do a better job of protecting it's jobs.... but I believe this needs to be done independently by U.S. citizens. Where do you shop? What do you buy and where is it made? Etc.
If consumers prioritized U.S. made goods as they would in the same respect as cost and (in recent years) Environmental issues, I thin we could start making some real progress. Government regulation/ quotas, etc. is NOT the answer. This would lead to red tape and inefficiency.

don't forget... part of the off shoring IS cost-cutting.... BUT there is also a great demand for expertise that there is short supply of in the U.S. (Hope I am not getting too far off topic here). American schools are not teaching Math and Science anymore!! Everyone is fighting over Darwinism vs. Creationism and whether or not to teach about Kindergartners about gay couples. How about kids learning science and Math instead? How many U.S. children are learning a foreign language?

Simply buying US goods because it was made in the US is the height of fallacy. Buying the superior product is the only real rational decision. However, you do make the point that the consumers can and should make the decision for themselves. Thanks for pointing out the education issue, as well. There is less emphasis on education in our society these days, particularly as we focus on ensuring students "feel good", that everyone deserves an award simply for trying.

Originally Posted by roncorey1

Well, I only took one economics class back in '97 so I am not an expert on any of these hotly debated topics. But I AM like alot of folks and can speak from experience.

After I got out of the Navy in '94 I went to community college to obtain a two-year degree in a technical field. I decided to pursue a career in manufacturing. I was lucky enough (I thought back then) to get a job at a nearby textiles factory. it was a "classic" American-owned Southern textiles operation that had a union, good advancement/training opportunities and benefits. In 2000 it closed and i got laid off.

I bounced around for the next 5 years taking lesser jobs with lower pay and benefits. Finally, I was lucky enough (again?) to find a job with a "specialty" textiles maker that was foreign-owned. It did not have a union, but the benefits seemed good. training and advancement was sorely lacking, but it was a smaller operation so I dealt with it. A year into this job the company froze the pensions plan. In August last year I got laid off and the factory closed this past March.

Now the only jobs I can find similar to these are paying $4 or $5 dollars less an hour and benefits are after 90 days and you have to be "multi-craft" instead of concentration in one trade specialty.

So here I am like alot of folks. I am pushing 40, have a child, have a mortgage and credit card debt, and the job opportunities that are available will put me back 5-10 years. Changing careers does the same. But we keep hearing that this is somehow a "good thing". Retraining every 10 years and being "flexible" and "open" to change.

I guess the days of choosing a career path after school is just a tired paradigm that is part of the "good 'ol days".

What we see individually is one thing, but what happens in the aggregate over time is another. This is why I bring up the point about studying economics. What on the surface seems logical is anything but.

Ultimately, this is what it boils down to. As a society develops, it's focus of GDP moves away from things like agriculture to simple production to more complex services. Yes, anything can be outsourced. However, EVERYTHING won't be. In fact, if you study things like the theory of comparative advantage, you'll see how trade benefits, why some jobs DO need to go overseas. We'll continue to do what we, as a nation, can do most efficiently compared to others. That goes on the individual level and the national level. Yes, we'll continue to produce SOME clothes, perhaps, and SOME electronics, but the bulk of labor will go elsewhere.

The key is to ensure that the transition isn't particularly painful, whether it is through UI or through retraining programs. However, protecting industries isn't the answer.

Or, I'll put it this way. We can simply "buy American" all the time. That won't protect our jobs either, as things become automated. So, one way or the other, those jobs will eventually go away.

But... Without taking economics courses (which, frankly, I think a college degree should require 3, at a minimum: introductory microeconomics and macroeconomics, and perhaps a class on international economics), as I mentioned in another thread, I'd recommend these very readable books:

The Choice: A Fable of Free Trade and Protectionism
The Travels of a T-Shirt in the Global Economy
The Myth of the Rational Voter: Why Democracies Choose Bad Policies
and maybe also The Wal-Mart Effect.

Sorry this is so long. I'm slow to respond sometimes - I'm up in Canada with family at the moment.

[roncorey1]

I have been working in manufacturing for the greater part of 12 years and the ignorance on the part of the general public, as well as the average poster on City-Data, of the level of technology and training that is needed to produce a quality product never ceases to amaze me!!

This notion that factories are full of uneducated drones still survives and due to that our culture and society continues to devalue jobs in manufacturing. Now we are seeing the results of that. Only people who have worked in manufacturing nowadays seem to get it. Everybody elese seems to brainwashed by the media and politics of "the new economy"!

[DoctorWho]

I didn't mean to imply that everyone working in manufacturing is a mindless drone. However, the point remains that there are necessarily going to be fewer and fewer jobs in manufacturing as a result of technology. Whether it's outsourcing or more efficient technology, either way it's something that shouldn't be fought. Most economists would agree with that.