Parenting in the UK and the Continent. What's poppin' there nowadays?...

[Shooting Stars]

Syracusa,

It was very different when I was growing up too. I clearly remember the first time I met someone who had lived the over-scheduled childhood. It was a twenty-year-old girl I worked with at the very end of the 1980s.

I've met parents who admitted they spend very little time together because they are too busy driving their children around to endless ECs and waiting around for them. Some of the schedules are mind-boggling and I don't understand how the children themselves don't drop from exhaustion. How much can they even concentrate on homework with a schedule that allows so little time?

I think the whole thing really got going in the 1990s in the U.S. While I do think some activity is desirable, I would limit it to two ECs at the most. But plenty of children do far more.

Lack of time undermines academics in my opinion. The U.S. has been an innovative place, but it's citizens are some of the worst informed in the world. I think there's more emphasis on getting good grades than real intellectual curiosity. Besides, who has time for that?

I also think real advances in science or technology require a person having downtime to think. So much advancement in this world came from a person just having time to THINK.

Even if this is catching on in Europe, I doubt it will ever become as extreme as here. They've never been as fond of the rushed life as Americans and they put more emphasis on enjoying the simple things in life.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by Shooting Stars

Lack of time undermines academics in my opinion.

Duh!!

But go argue this on the parenting forum and see how many mothers will jump at your throat to deride this "silly" idea.
"Why can't you understand that there are so many kids out there who are both academic giants AND top EC achievers??" the song goes.

One thing they forget to mention is whether such children will become adults with whom you can actually have a human conversation.

If you tell them the day still has 24 hours in it for everyone and that a child who spends significant amounts of time in EC activities (no matter how smart) will not be as academically astute as an equally smart child who spend all those extra hours on higher level academics, they will simply not want to hear. Likewise, if you tell them that children who are constantly scheduled will not ever be able to develop the kind of refinements of the mind that come from reading for pleasure and then spontaneously interacting with fellow humans to discuss what not at length (for pure pleasure of company, not for CV-related reasons!) ...they will still not get that.

The only reason why they don't get it is because such people were raised on "to do" lists since day 1. They don't know what true intellectual curiosity looks like, neither do they understand what a truly enjoyable and meaningful conversation sounds like...which is the very reason why they don't leave time available in the day for such things in the first place.
They only thing they get kicks out of is checking yet another "to do" off their list.

I've recently had the "pleasure" of meeting one such younger "to do"-er whose CV, dripping with accomplishments, got him into Harvard. He finished a PhD there - so it ain't getting much better than that on paper.
My sister dated him for a year or so - and this is how I met him.

Talking and interacting with this guy was like talking with cardboard.

Conversations were hardly developing because he clearly didn't know how to maintain much of a conversation. He did know how to play soccer and to write very sophisticated sounding articles and books - which I was perfectly capable of understanding as I myself hold one of those degrees in a similar field. However, I am older than he is and I come from a time when children were raised as humans, not as robotic achievers.

My sister could not resist in this completely flavorless relationship because the guy's life was literally that of a robot. He did everything by the clock and by the schedule, every bit of the day was a scheduled block to be methodically approached, dealt with, and cut off the list.

What a nightmare.

In reality though, a guy like that is guaranteed to snatch the job away from your humanely raised child. Here, in America, at least.

In Europe...I don't know. YOU guys tell me.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by Shooting Stars

They've never been as fond of the rushed life as Americans and they put more emphasis on enjoying the simple things in life.

...which, in fact, are not that simple.

Being able to maintain a substantive conversation with a fellow human and enjoy it at the same time, requires more brain than attending cocktail parties for "winners" and talking about nothing all evening.

When you end up having more substantive and more intellectually engaging conversations with the equivalent of a red-neck from a previous generation than with young Yvy League-ers...then something is clearly rotten in the state of Denmark; and elsewhere.

[FinsterRufus]

Originally Posted by syracusa

Duh!!

But go argue this on the parenting forum and see how many mothers will jump at your throat to deride this "silly" idea.
"Why can't you understand that there are so many kids out there who are both academic giants AND top EC achievers??" the song goes.

One thing they forget to mention is whether such children will become adults with whom you can actually have a human conversation.

If you tell them the day still has 24 hours in it for everyone and that a child who spends significant amounts of time in EC activities (no matter how smart) will not be as academically astute as an equally smart child who spend all those extra hours on higher level academics, they will simply not want to hear. Likewise, if you tell them that children who are constantly scheduled will not ever be able to develop the kind of refinements of the mind that come from reading for pleasure and then spontaneously interacting with fellow humans to discuss what not at length (for pure pleasure of company, not for CV-related reasons!) ...they will still not get that.

The only reason why they don't get it is because such people were raised on "to do" lists since day 1. They don't know what true intellectual curiosity looks like, neither do they understand what a truly enjoyable and meaningful conversation sounds like...which is the very reason why they don't leave time available in the day for such things in the first place.
They only thing they get kicks out of is checking yet another "to do" off their list.

I beg your pardon. I realize that what I'm about to post probably falls under your "not allowed" criteria, but let's take a look at what the majority of posters in parenting actually had to say about EC's that YOU were inquiring about for YOUR child. You have posted a gross and offensively inaccurate summation of a very diverse and interesting group of people.

And please don't tell me this post is off topic. After all, you brought it up. So let's discuss just how the parents did respond, and not just your undisputed fantasy version thereof.

Originally Posted by paganmama80

I don't know any parents with all their kids having 2-3 activities to be honest. At most one and quite a few have zero.

Originally Posted by UNC4Me

Me either.

To the OP: Last I checked Harvard (or any other college) doesn't care about what your kid did or didn't do prior to High School. If you want your kids in activities, go for it. If not, that's fine too.

Originally Posted by Dorthy

we use the rec centers for activities. At most one activity per season at $60 for 3 months. We did 3 sessions last year for a grand total of $180. We haven't done anything since the beginning of summer. We sign dd up for these activities because she thinks they are fun, not because we're trying to get her into Harvard.

Originally Posted by num1baby

DD is in cheerleading and it costs $7 per week. There are 2 seasons per year that last 3 months each. We had to buy the uniform, but got it big and can use the same uniform as long as she continues with this group.
So, since the uniform is bought, we pay $168 per year for cheerleading.

She is also in Oddysey of the Mind and have paid $20 so far for that.

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

Colleges don't care what you do when you're 5. There is no reason to make a 5 year old crazy with a million activities unless he enjoys them.

Originally Posted by Dorthy

My dd has a ton of free time, probably more then most kids her age since she is homeschooled. She enjoys her free time but also likes to take a class from time to time. Why do you feel obligated to sign your kids up for activities when they would rather use their free time for play?

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

We are in the middle of college admissions hell right now and that is what we have been told. That kids should have some EC and that it is better to have a long term commitment to something than a million different things for 6 months at a time.

Originally Posted by lkb0714

Nothing or at least very close to it.

My daughter played rec soccer in elementary school which may have cost some money but that was it.

She mostly choose to play school sponsored sports and academic extracurriculars. In terms of sports she did soccer and surfing, so maybe we bought cleats but her boards, wetsuits, etc are all covered by the local surf shop she is sponsored by. As for her research she paid about $30 for materials for the first one and then she got "grants" from the various competitions she entered for the subsequent ones.

I will also point out even if it is off topic, that having multiple activities is far less important than having one or two that a student is passionate about in terms of college admission.

Originally Posted by js1mom

My child can do ONE extracurricular activity at any given time--- provided her grades stay up. Of course, my little social butterfly struggles to stay on top of her grades, so maybe others don't mind LETTING their kids do more than one activity at a time. IMO--- forcing a child to do anything that is supposed to "enhance" their life is ludacrous. I see too many parents trying to live their lives through their children's accomplishments by forcing them into too many activites, and that can be quite pitiful. They're children--- let them be children first and prodigies last--- if that's what THEY want.

Who cares what everyone else is doing or spending? What works for you, and most of all--- for your children?

Originally Posted by Magritte25

My kids can do more than one thing. If we can afford it. If not, oh well.

Originally Posted by Zimbochick

As long as your son is spending time outdoors during the week, riding bikes, playing basketball, playing with friends, exploring, then one hour of scheduled activity should be fine for now. You will find as they get older all their friends are in scheduled activities, and spontaneous socializing is more difficult. Kids need exercise any which way.

Originally Posted by strawflower

He's 6 As long as he's getting outside, getting exercise, etc. and not sitting around all day, who cares? My oldest was the exact same way, preferred to stay at home, hang in the yard with neighbors and spontaneously socialize and had no interest in extracurricular activites; now she's a perfectly well adjusted 16 year old who is involved with lots at school and through sports. I wouldn't worry.

Originally Posted by Magritte25

If you can't be carefree when you are six, when can you be?

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

He's 6. I wouldn't force anything on a 6 year old but that's just me. He's in kindergarten. As important as I see ECs being, I don't see the need for them in such young children.

[Tiger Beer]

Tons of organized things over here in Japan as well.

I grew up in Michigan, and we never had paid organized things. If you're seeing it in the U.S., maybe a suburban thing?

[syracusa]

FinsterRufus,

I can bring you just as many excerpts (or many more) that prove the other point. In addition, many people pay lip service to the idea of "carefree childhood" because they know it still has socially desirable connotations; but they do not act on those ideas and this is pretty clear as soon as you enter your typical middle- to upper-middle class community. I never said people of lower socio-economic background sign their kids up for a slew of activities. They would though if they had the money to do it.

Yet others flat out try to convince you how a life dripping in EC-s is the right kind of life for children.

Those statements along with what I have actually seen and experienced out there - that's enough for me.

The EC phenomena in the US is pure madness compared to the life I knew overseas only a decade ago....and to the life many Americans remember pre-1980's or so.

I simply wanted to know what happens in a variety of countries in Europe at this time - but few people on this forum seem to have in-depth information.

[Zimbochick]

Syracusa - I'm very curious to know why you think your experience was the norm? What your family chose to do does not represent every family. I went to school in Africa in the 1970's and apart from an academically stringent British-based schooling, we all participated in extracurricular activities. All children played sport, the majority of children played a musical instrument, and depending on individual interests there a wide variety of other pursuits available. Apart from sports, 4H, Outward Bound, drama, choir, public speaking, debating society, and girl scouts were all activities I participated in over the years. My family sailed, and we did that every weekend.

I have a Czechoslovakian friend who attended school in the 1980's, and went to college on a gymnastics scholarship, but throughout her school years she played a variety of other sports too. Another (West) German friend had extracurricular activities very like mine.

Perhaps your lack of personal experience with extracurricular activities in your childhood is clouding your judgement on this issue?

[FinsterRufus]

Originally Posted by syracusa

FinsterRufus,

I can bring you just as many excerpts (or many more) that prove the other point.

Please do. Because in the tread you started over in parenting, I can't find any. None that answer in terms anywhere near what you have alleged was said when you "try to argue" it. In fact, the posts were overwhelmingly in favor of you toning it down a bit.

Originally Posted by syracusa

In addition, many people pay lip service to the idea of "carefree childhood" because they know it still has socially desirable connotations; but they do not act on those ideas and this is pretty clear as soon as you enter your typical middle- to upper-middle class community. I never said people of lower socio-economic background sign their kids up for a slew of activities. They would though if they had the money to do it.

I see. People answer your questions, tell you what they are doing with their kids, and you call it "lip service". I think you only hear what supports your theory, and disregard any evidence to the contrary. And you have no idea what people of lower socio-economic backgrounds would do. You're just making an assumption based on zero evidence. As you have completely misrepresented the responses on the Parenting Forum, just how trustworthy is your perception?

Originally Posted by syracusa

Yet others flat out try to convince you how a life dripping in EC-s is the right kind of life for children.

Do they? Perhaps they do, or perhaps you take somebody simply telling you that little Susie does ballet as them doing their best to convince you that a life dripping in EC"s is the right kind of life.

Originally Posted by syracusa

Those statements along with what I have actually seen and experienced out there - that's enough for me.

I don't doubt that you've met some parents that are like this. Of course there are some out there. But your previous post was an indictment of all parents in the parenting forum, and was totally over inflated and not accurate at all.

Originally Posted by syracusa

The EC phenomena in the US is pure madness compared to the life I knew overseas only a decade ago....and to the life many Americans remember pre-1980's or so.

And yet here you are, trying to do the same with your kids. You inquired about piano lessons for your 6 year old, somebody mentioned they run about 30 minutes or so, and you post that that's not likely going to be enough and that 60 minutes would suit your child better, down the road a bit. Despite people saying they think that's too long for a child, you stuck with it. So why are you doing that very thing that you so despise?

And, when you discover there's children's choirs, you want to know how to sign your boy up for it, because you think he has talent. Please tell me what makes you any different from the parents that you disparage so?

Originally Posted by syracusa

I simply wanted to know what happens in a variety of countries in Europe at this time - but few people on this forum seem to have in-depth information.

If that's all you wanted, then you wouldn't have set off on that dreadful diatribe against the parents who post in the other forum. What you really want, IMO, is for somebody to back up your never ending disdain for modern American parents and their way of doing things. If you "simply" wanted to know what happens in Europe, YOU would have stuck to your own topic.

As to that, I would imagine that Europe suffers from the same phenomena regarding their future potential stars - do you think that their youngest ballet dancers, gymnasts, football players, swimmers and musicians just sit around on their patooties all day playing with sticks? Or do you think European parents push just as hard (harder, even, in some countries) as their American counter parts?