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Again, it's hard to tell because there is little transparency for these things in Moscow and the giant defense and space sectors in the city are not going to be patenting much of what they're doing, nor will it invite much in outside funding sources (so, those sectors won't have "more" funding sources as the Russian government). It will have a lot of science/technology professionals. One thing Moscow and its educational institutions seems to produce in spades is talented professionals--it's an unfortunate thing that the US being much wealthier and more populous than Russia seems to rely so much on importing talent rather than fixing its primary and secondary education systems to produce a wealth of native-grown talent more proportionate to its wealth and size. There needs to be a baseline of calculus, linear algebra, introductory computer programming, and the applications of the former three in courses for all the science fields for all US university students, if not high school students, but as things currently stand, I can't imagine that being possible for a very long time.
When it comes to universities, Moscow (and Russia in general) does create an outsized number of science and technological professionals. However, its system of having their students initially at the universities but then doing their research at other institutions, usually within the Russian Academy of Sciences, doesn't work well with the methodology of a lot of school ranking systems as that research and those papers are not counted as part of the schools. It's why you have schools like phystech and moscow state constantly ranking so absurdly well in university stems competitions (you can look through results like this or this going back several years and it's absurd how the US ranks given its advantages of wealth and population--and then you find that many of the US students who place in it are immigrants or first-generation Americans--there is something seriously screwed up with our primary and secondary education), but then somehow not having the commensurate university rankings. Then again, the kleptocracy's recent proposal for "reforms" to the Russian Academy of Sciences where it is no longer a self-managed and run institution might change all of this severely in the coming years.
Without a doubt Russia is strong in science and technology. They did reach the moon without the help of the US! It's hard to imagine they are stronger than SF at this current time because of the Bay's magnet of pulling the best of the best from around the world, including Russians. Talented people want money/opportunity and if given the chance, many around the world come to the Bay instead of Moscow. Like you said, much of what happens in Russia is secretive and therefore not measurable but technological advances do result in higher living standards and Russia is still less than half than the US in terms of GDP/capita. If Russia's research efforts are going into things like defence and space as opposed to technologies like green energy, internet, telecom, etc. then now we get into what is more relevant to mankind and what each has contributed in those fields.
You make a good point with US science and technology professionals. Much of it is imported. Smart Americans dream of being lawyers and investment bankers which are professions that don't advance society in the same way science does. I believe the US is world's powerhouse because of its science and technology and because of places like SF (the Bay) but once R&D centers move to places like China, Singapore, India, etc. in a serious fashion then the US will stagnate and become more like Europe. The best of the best won't want to come to the US any more because the best opportunities won't be there. It could happen and it's up the US to do something about it.
Last edited by johnathanc; 10-22-2013 at 08:23 PM..
Without a doubt Russia is strong in science and technology. They did reach the moon without the help of the US! It's hard to imagine they are stronger than SF at this current time because of the Bay's magnet of pulling the best of the best from around the world, including Russians. Talented people want money/opportunity and if given the chance, many around the world come to the Bay instead of Moscow. Like you said, much of what happens in Russia is secretive and therefore not measurable but technological advances do result in higher living standards and Russia is still less than half than the US in terms of GDP/capita. If Russia's research efforts are going into things like defence and space as opposed to technologies like green energy, internet, telecom, etc. then now we get into what is more relevant to mankind and what each has contributed in those fields.
You make a good point with US science and technology professionals. Much of it is imported. Smart Americans dream of being lawyers and investment bankers which are professions that don't advance society in the same way science does. I believe the US is world's because of its science and technology and because of places like SF (the Bay) but once R&D centers move to places like China, Singapore, India, etc. in a serious fashion then the US will stagnate and become more like Europe. The best of the best won't want to come to the US any more because the best opportunities won't be there. It could happen and it's up the US to do something about it.
I think overall, it's a bit of a wash right now and it doesn't really do much to try to break things down by sectors because a lot of them run into each (space obviously included telecom, commercial production doesn't weigh easily against fundamental research, nuclear energy falls somewhere upon the spectrum, etc.). However, tech is supposed to be the Bay Area's bread and butter. For Moscow, it would be but one pillar.
You should also keep in mind this is the Bay Area versus Moscow, not the US versus Russia. The Bay Area is wealthy--and so is Moscow, though I believe somewhat less wealthy depending on how it's measured. It's the rest of Russia for the most part that's been eating it pretty hard. And R&D centers haven't "just" developed elsewhere--they've been elsewhere for a while. Again, a lot of this is the focus on consumer-facing electronics within the English-speaking world. The measurement for funding is VC in the way the US funds its tech. Obviously, looking from that context, it's going to appear the Bay Area is a lot more significant to the average person than it actually is when talking about science and technology in broader strokes. And I don't think it's simply an issue of what smart Americans dream of, so much as we don't produce the number of smart Americans that would be commensurate to our wealth or population size.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 10-22-2013 at 08:13 PM..
Interesting. The Bay Area has nearly as many ultra high net worth individuals as the whole of Canada and about 4 times as many as Russia, and by far the highest proportion of these individuals of any city in the Top 10 worldwide.
Individuals Worth $30 Millon+, 2013 Top 10 Cities
1 New York 8,025
2 London 6,360
3 Tokyo 6,015
4 Los Angeles 4,945 5 SAN FRANCISCO 4,840
6 Osaka 3,300
7 Paris 3,195
8 Hong Kong 3,180
9 Mexico City 2,695
10 Washington DC 2,675
Other cities
Chicago 2,665
Houston 2,490
Beijing 2,320
Dallas 2,240
Mumbai 2,135
Zurich 1,940
Munich 1,740
Delhi 1,980
Geneva 1,460
Dusseldorf 1,420
Shanghai 1,410
Hamburg 1,380
Singapore 1,355
Frankfurt 1,310
Rome 1,194
Atlanta 1,135
Madrid 1,135
Shenzhen 1,085
Seattle 1,070
Boston 995
Guangzhou 980
Banglaore 750
Some countries
Canada 4,980
Brazil 4,015
Australia 3,055
Mexico 3,365
Saudi Arabia 1,360
Russia 1,180
United Arab Emirates 1,050
South Africa 775
Interesting. The Bay Area has nearly as many ultra high net worth individuals as the whole of Canada and about 4 times as many as Russia, and by far the highest proportion of these individuals of any city in the Top 10 worldwide.
Individuals Worth $30 Millon+, 2013 Top 10 Cities
1 New York 8,025
2 London 6,360
3 Tokyo 6,015
4 Los Angeles 4,945 5 SAN FRANCISCO 4,840
6 Osaka 3,300
7 Paris 3,195
8 Hong Kong 3,180
9 Mexico City 2,695
10 Washington DC 2,675
Other cities
Chicago 2,665
Houston 2,490
Beijing 2,320
Dallas 2,240
Mumbai 2,135
Zurich 1,940
Munich 1,740
Delhi 1,980
Geneva 1,460
Dusseldorf 1,420
Shanghai 1,410
Hamburg 1,380
Singapore 1,355
Frankfurt 1,310
Rome 1,194
Atlanta 1,135
Madrid 1,135
Shenzhen 1,085
Seattle 1,070
Boston 995
Guangzhou 980
Banglaore 750
Some countries
Canada 4,980
Brazil 4,015
Australia 3,055
Mexico 3,365
Saudi Arabia 1,360
Russia 1,180
United Arab Emirates 1,050
South Africa 775
If money isn't power , I don't know what is. Unfortunately money equates to power. The fact is there isn't a good way to measure "power", "influence" or "political power" other than looking at money (GDP, high net worth citizens), patents (knowledge reservoir), innovation, etc.
San Francisco just crushes all other place, and is an envy of the world. Money, knowledge, innovation, physical beauty, culture - the city has it all.
what does this have to do with anything? just your opinion.
another opinion
Unless you are going to school there I'm not sure what access you speak of...
SF is more isolated to population centers than Toronto is in North America.
all your posts are basically opinion driven, gays everywhere, organic food, heaven, weather?
again everything you do is through some western liberal view of how culture should be like.
whatever floats your boat.
Did you read and comprehend? I made it clear that I am posting opinions for like-minded people. Also, I was responding to someone's assessment of livability. This post was particularly of opinions for like-minded people and livability, and I refrained from general objective facts.
San Francisco may be more physically "isolated" (though it's easier access to Tokyo and rest of east of Asia) but it still costs LESS to fly from San Francisco than from Toronto to pretty much most places in the world, just looking from a ordinary citizen's viewpoint.
No sweetie, you don't have to go to school to benefit from the presence of a great academic institute present in the city. Academics draw a lot of great culture, food, etc. into the city (or the neighbourhood).It's felt more in smaller cities. Of course, there're benefit if you attend the school.
Interesting. The Bay Area has nearly as many ultra high net worth individuals as the whole of Canada and about 4 times as many as Russia, and by far the highest proportion of these individuals of any city in the Top 10 worldwide.
Individuals Worth $30 Millon+, 2013 Top 10 Cities
1 New York 8,025
2 London 6,360
3 Tokyo 6,015
4 Los Angeles 4,945 5 SAN FRANCISCO 4,840
6 Osaka 3,300
7 Paris 3,195
8 Hong Kong 3,180
9 Mexico City 2,695
10 Washington DC 2,675
Other cities
Chicago 2,665
Houston 2,490
Beijing 2,320
Dallas 2,240
Mumbai 2,135
Zurich 1,940
Munich 1,740
Delhi 1,980
Geneva 1,460
Dusseldorf 1,420
Shanghai 1,410
Hamburg 1,380
Singapore 1,355
Frankfurt 1,310
Rome 1,194
Atlanta 1,135
Madrid 1,135
Shenzhen 1,085
Seattle 1,070
Boston 995
Guangzhou 980
Banglaore 750
Some countries
Canada 4,980
Brazil 4,015
Australia 3,055
Mexico 3,365
Saudi Arabia 1,360
Russia 1,180
United Arab Emirates 1,050
South Africa 775
Why not just upgrade to billionaire? Go for the gold. This would all end up in a wash though anyhow, so there's little point. Do a cutoff of billionaires and you'll favor one; do a cut-off of a certain other number, then you'll favor another. The Bay Area likely has a per capita GDP that's decently higher (though Moscow's GDP per capita is quite high itself) and from some reports the GDP in aggregate for the two (taking the entire CSA for the Bay Area and Moscow's metropolitan area) are comparable. So, good for the Bay Area in achieving that in a smaller population. So there's one--but again, after that, Moscow has significant influence and power in other ways.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 10-23-2013 at 08:31 AM..
Did you read and comprehend? I made it clear that I am posting opinions for like-minded people. Also, I was responding to someone's assessment of livability. This post was particularly of opinions for like-minded people and livability, and I refrained from general objective facts.
San Francisco may be more physically "isolated" (though it's easier access to Tokyo and rest of east of Asia) but it still costs LESS to fly from San Francisco than from Toronto to pretty much most places in the world, just looking from a ordinary citizen's viewpoint.
No sweetie, you don't have to go to school to benefit from the presence of a great academic institute present in the city. Academics draw a lot of great culture, food, etc. into the city (or the neighbourhood).It's felt more in smaller cities. Of course, there're benefit if you attend the school.
Well, it's a forum so pretty much your posts are accessible to even people who are not like-minded. What do you think a forum is for? Didn't his post on isolated specifically have the modifier "in North America"? You're a fan of reading, right?
I agree there can be benefits to having a good educational institutions within the city. Well, except for New Haven.
If money isn't power , I don't know what is. Unfortunately money equates to power. The fact is there isn't a good way to measure "power", "influence" or "political power" other than looking at money (GDP, high net worth citizens), patents (knowledge reservoir), innovation, etc.
San Francisco just crushes all other place, and is an envy of the world. Money, knowledge, innovation, physical beauty, culture - the city has it all.
I think people would disagree with you on your "equation" for power. Money is one factor sure. But what do you mean specifically? Having rich people? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe its the people that controls the money? So in that case, its wall street, and the fed in DC. Those people to me have the "power" and those decisions and policies directly impact the US economy by injecting funds into a system design to stimulate economic and job growth; much more impactful than running "knowledge/data/superhighway" platforms designed to sell advertising.
SF the envy of the world in culture? Laughable and can't hold a candle to NYC and Paris, for example.
Moscow, I would rank most important, as the capital of one of the most influential and populated countries in the world, as bigger than both other cities in terms of population, and as one of Russia's only two true gateways to the modern world.
Toronto would be ranked as next influential, in my eyes. The capital of one of the G8 Nations with a rapidly increasing global influence, it has actual global standing and more people, in my opinion, will know about it and where it is than the Bay Area.
Despite what everybody else here seems to think, I would not place SF in the top 20 if I had to produce a list of cities with the most global influence. I could name 5 more cities in the US more important than it, 10 in the Americas. Despite it being quite important to the online world, I would hang out and say Tokyo, Seoul, New York and London have around the same reputation when it comes to that area, with the added bonus of that not being all they're famous for. Just because that is probably the only thing SF is globally famous for, does not mean it is the only city famous for it.
Don't get me wrong, I am not insulting San Francisco/the Bay Area. I think it's a beautiful part of the world and there are some great people there. I merely think the importance of it is being completely overstated in this thread.
Moscow, I would rank most important, as the capital of one of the most influential and populated countries in the world, as bigger than both other cities in terms of population, and as one of Russia's only two true gateways to the modern world.
Toronto would be ranked as next influential, in my eyes. The capital of one of the G8 Nations with a rapidly increasing global influence, it has actual global standing and more people, in my opinion, will know about it and where it is than the Bay Area.
Despite what everybody else here seems to think, I would not place SF in the top 20 if I had to produce a list of cities with the most global influence. I could name 5 more cities in the US more important than it, 10 in the Americas. Despite it being quite important to the online world, I would hang out and say Tokyo, Seoul, New York and London have around the same reputation when it comes to that area, with the added bonus of that not being all they're famous for. Just because that is probably the only thing SF is globally famous for, does not mean it is the only city famous for it.
Don't get me wrong, I am not insulting San Francisco/the Bay Area. I think it's a beautiful part of the world and there are some great people there. I merely think the importance of it is being completely overstated in this thread.
Toronto is not the capital of Canada (its political power within Canada is actually not that great and a bit of a sore point in fact) and is globally certainly less influential than San Francisco. (Not solely because of this point BTW.)
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