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Diesel hold there price, just look at any decent used diesel, the price tag tells the story.
Diesels don't need to be plunged in either.
Mine start in -34*f .
But it does make it easier on a diesel or a gasser if is it plunged in at those temps.
Gas does experience freeze up at those temps also.
Gasssers do not "pull" as good as a diesel as the diesel produces more toque and the diesel produces more toque LOW in the power band, At lower rpms.
This is what you want for towing and to get that load going.
A gasser will have to be operated much higher in the rpm band to do the same job and as it is doing it , it will be drinking down the gas.
Even a small trailer will quickly effect the millage of a gasser.
The wind resistance or the trailer will have an effect regardless of the weight.
There are just a few differences to get use to with a diesel.
It's really not that hard to maintain one.
Diesel hold there price, just look at any decent used diesel, the price tag tells the story.
Maybe in the Rocky Mtns, but not anywhere else - esp here in Canada
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Diesels don't need to be plunged in either.
Mine start in -34*f .
But it does make it easier on a diesel or a gasser if is it plunged in at those temps.
Gas does experience freeze up at those temps also.
Diesels with glow plugs like the 7.3 Ford must be plugged in. Newer trucks like the Ram has a grid heater, but should really be plugged in -40C and below.
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Gasssers do not "pull" as good as a diesel as the diesel produces more toque and the diesel produces more toque LOW in the power band, At lower rpms.
This is what you want for towing and to get that load going.
A gasser will have to be operated much higher in the rpm band to do the same job and as it is doing it , it will be drinking down the gas.
That depends on the gas model. I have a V10 (8L) 310hp@4100 rpm which outperforms the 1999 Cummins 24V model. My redline is 9000, vs the Cummins at 6500.
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There are just a few differences to get use to with a diesel.
It's really not that hard to maintain one.
The newer diesels require ULSD (15ppm) which is 20-30 cents higher than the old LSD. They need to have DEF added every 17,000-km or the vehicle slows down to creep speed or won't operate at all. That's not an improvement over the older fuels. Oil changes are $50-75 every 12000km and fuel filter changes are $75-100 every 24000km. Depending on how much you drive - that could be twice to five times a year. At 55000km you'll need a valve lash adjustment ($250) and at 125,000 km they need to have a minor overhaul ($250-300).
My V10 needs 7 qts of synthetic 5W-20 every 7500km and burns 85-86-87-89 octane gas. It has 175,990 km on it and has had to replace a water pump and a fuel pump which set me back $375 about five years ago. Otherwise, it's been trouble free to operate. It never needs to be plugged in even on a day like today in Fairbanks -33C
Having seen the nice used 4x4 diesel pick-ups that neighbors have bought in my area ... SE Wyoming and Northern Colorado in the last year ... my impression of the marketplace is that these vehicles have come down to a fraction of their prior values. When you're seeing extra-cab or extended cab F-250 4x4's with 125-150,000 miles on them bringing $4,000, and they look pretty clean and straight and are being used reliably as farm trucks, they're not holding their value like they used to.
Hawknest, the Ford V-8's don't require a valve adjust; the Cummins do, but many people forgo doing this because experience has shown that they don't drift or wear out of adjustment significantly for many more miles than the factory maintenance schedule. At that, most of the folk I know around here in farm/ranch country can do this work themselves or have a neighbor who can. It's not a big deal; I spend as much time just cleaining up the valve covers for reassembly as I do to do the valve adjustment on my '96 Dodge.
The latest diesels don't appear to require the block heater use that my older ones do at lower temps. I've got neighbors who don't use a block heater anymore except in sub-zero temps and it's not necessary to use it to get the engine started, it's more a convenience for an easier cold start and peace of mind over dry/cold engine start up.
I don't spend anywhere near the cost you suggest is needed for a fuel filter and I can change one out in a matter of minutes. With the miles I put on my trucks these days, it's years between fuel filter changes ... and I do use the trucks for hauling purposes, not for transportation. With two diesel 3/4 ton trucks, it's not very cost prohibitive to keep them on the road each year. Just checked the odo on my '95 F-250 and I'll have put 7,500 miles on it this year.
Even in Fairbanks climate, 3,500 miles on synthetic oil change intervals sounds excessive. You're no colder than it gets here in SE Wyoming at altitude, and I can't justify synthetic oil in my diesels. I've got over 250,000 miles on both, and Rotella T multi-vis works just fine. I've had the valve covers off and you couldn't even wipe a film off of them, or the rocker arms or the glow plugs that I had to replace (1 set) in my Powerstroke. The Dodge/cummins ... at 250,000 miles ... hasn't yet required a fuel pump or water pump, and the Ford only got a water pump because a mechanic misdiagnosed or oversold a seeping gasket at the t-stat housing when my wife was on a trip and I was out of town at the time.
I'm not sure what you call a "minor overhaul" pertains to in operating a diesel engine; if there's hard parts involved, the price and mileage you quote don't make any sense at all.
You wanna bet? A Fleetguard oil filter LF3349 from NW Cummins or Geno's Garage for a 12V is $8.95 and a Stratapore LF16035 is $12.95 - Three gallons of 15W-40 Rotella T is $40 from Big R. If you take it to the dealer it's $75
The fuel filter for the 12V is 15.95 to 18.95 / but for the 10-12 models it's 48.95 - 63.95 + labor and don't forget when you're doing the fuel filter you're also doing the oil filter.
When I wrote km - that's not miles. I use Valvoline (Napa) synthetics on everything here. I do oil samples at 7500km and send it to Blackstone every 3 months. We do extended changes at 15000km. A case of Napa oil is $40
Brian: I don't have to justify anything. I've had my share of Cummins and DuraMax in Wyoming, Idaho and Montana, along with C7's and ISB-ISC's. I went for simplicity when I moved to Whitehorse. It seemed more practical to not have to look for a diesel mech and those high prices, than to just take my gasser to the lube station.
Even in Fairbanks climate, 3,500 miles on synthetic oil change intervals sounds excessive.
I run synthetic oil 10W-30 in my 8.1L replace the oil filter at 6000 miles and do a full change at 12,000 miles. The truck has over 155,000 miles on it. It's been full synthetic since the initial warranty expired.
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You're no colder than it gets here in SE Wyoming at altitude, and I can't justify synthetic oil in my diesels.
Really? It's gotten to -70° F in Wyoming? The record low for the State is -66° F observed February 9, 1933, at Yellowstone Park. But that's NOT in SE Wyoming. The coldest it ever got in Cody in the 28 yrs we lived there at altitude was -31° F for nearly a week in late 90's. Every water pipe broke the week after.
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I'm not sure what you call a "minor overhaul" pertains to in operating a diesel engine; if there's hard parts involved, the price and mileage you quote don't make any sense at all.
Serpentine belt replacement, emissions check and replacement at 150,000 miles - as recommended by the mfgr. Also new main bearings, check the cylinders for wear and a little clean up, open up the heads (port/polish), replace the injectors, new oil pump, etc...
I run synthetic oil 10W-30 in my 8.1L replace the oil filter at 6000 miles and do a full change at 12,000 miles. The truck has over 155,000 miles on it. It's been full synthetic since the initial warranty expired.
Really? It's gotten to -70° F in Wyoming? The record low for the State is -66° F observed February 9, 1933, at Yellowstone Park. But that's NOT in SE Wyoming. The coldest it ever got in Cody in the 28 yrs we lived there at altitude was -31° F for nearly a week in late 90's. Every water pipe broke the week after.
Let's try to get real, here, OK? A once in a lifetime record low setting temperature is NOT what you encounter in a typical winter where the average temperatures are far milder than the extreme record. Wiki reports for Fairbanks AK:
"Average winter low temperatures range from −15 °F (−26 °C) to −25 °F (−32 °C), but extremes can range from 50 °F (10 °C) to −60 °F (−51 °C)."
Those "average" winter low temperatures are substantially the same temperature range that we see across much of Wyoming in the winter months ... and our winter climate season, due to altitude, is within days of the same average length of winter as you see in Fairbanks.
Fairbanks is subject to wide swings in a day's temperature depending upon the wind direction. Southerly winds can bring 30-40-50 degree swings in temperature. Wyoming tends to be more consistent, with it being an isolated incident to have warm winds raise the temp into the 40's to 50F range, but we can see months where the temps don't exceed 0 F for days on end with nightime temps well below that, into the teens or even 20's below zero F. Our prevailing winds are from the North (Canadian Artic air) or from the Pacific NW (still more Canadian Artic air), and they can be significantly stronger than what you get in Fairbanks here in SE Wyoming; we have one of the highest average wind energy densities in the USA which you can verify by looking at a chart of these measurements.
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Serpentine belt replacement, emissions check and replacement at 150,000 miles - as recommended by the mfgr. Also new main bearings, check the cylinders for wear and a little clean up, open up the heads (port/polish), replace the injectors, new oil pump, etc...
Now I know you're way off ... there's no recommendation for "new main bearings, check cylinders for wear and a "little clean up", open up the heads (port/polish), replace injectors, new oil pump, etc ..."
You're talking a pan-to-cover long block engine overhaul, and you don't just do a "little clean up" in the cylinders in a diesel. If they mike within specs after a surface refinishing, then you're typically looking at pistons/rings replacement, otherwise a re-bore with new pistons/rings. Tearing an engine down this far would justify cam bearings, new followers, rod resizing, rod bearings and small end bushings, new con rod bolts, new head bolts, new guides (and possibly, valves), polishing the crankshaft with new main bearings, etc.
Unless an engine has been neglected for routine servicing or overheated or run out of oil, there's no justification for tearing one down at "150,000" miles ... and most certainly, you're not going to remove that engine and do the work you've indicated for the price that you've mentioned. Let alone the injectors replaced, which is about $325 +/- per rebuilt injector ... there's no reason to replace the injectors unless one has failed. A set of 8 far exceeds your posted cost here to do this, but more significantly ... just wouldn't be needed and certainly isn't in the factory guidelines.
A typical retail price for an overhauled long block these days runs about $4,000. Add in the reman injectors, rebuilt fuel injection system, overhauled turbo, replaced lines, high pressure oil pump, water pump, oil pump, and it's real easy to see this engine overhaul come in at $10K. At this level of pricing, these engines need to deliver a lot more than 150,000 miles before needing an overhaul like you describe ... or these would be out of the marketplace.
A $60 serp belt replacement at 150,000 miles doesn't equal a tear-down, cleaning, machining, rebuilding the engine ....
PS: I've overhauled a lot of diesel engines in my life, or replaced them with factory reman engines ... and never, from any manufacturer, have I seen an advisory to "port/polish" the heads. Cummins, Detroit, Caterpillar, Deutz, Ducati, Mercedes Benz, BMW, Lister, Gardner, Allis Chalmers, John Deere, MANN, and a host of others .... not one!
and if you're conflating your 8.1 V-10 with a diesel, it's not much less expensive to overhaul that than the diesel ... and it certainly doesn't require the major internal engine work and injectors that you've mentioned at the low mileage of 150,000 miles. Nor does the manufacturer advise to "port/polish" the heads in this engine, either.
I'm NOT way off - the 'puter keys got stuck when I tried to finish off my comment - "Also new main bearings, check the cylinders for wear and a little clean up, open up the heads (port/polish), replace the injectors, new oil pump, etc"...for the 500,000 mile in-frame overhaul~which is what Cummins and Cat deem necessary. I know I can read a manual, maybe better than some and I've even written a few TSB's in my time with them. Experts are like analysts except for the first four letters.
Further, my truck engine is an 8.1L Vortec, not a V10. It produces 455 # torque at 3,200 rpm. However, I would recommend either an 8.1L instead of the current 6.0L Chevy engine.
I'm NOT way off - the 'puter keys got stuck when I tried to finish off my comment - "Also new main bearings, check the cylinders for wear and a little clean up, open up the heads (port/polish), replace the injectors, new oil pump, etc"...for the 500,000 mile in-frame overhaul~which is what Cummins and Cat deem necessary. I know I can read a manual, maybe better than some and I've even written a few TSB's in my time with them. Experts are like analysts except for the first four letters.
What engine(s) from these two manufacturers are you talking about?
Dodge uses a Cummins 6 cyl 24 valve series and has no such recommendations for an "in-frame" overhaul of their engine. At that, it's not uncommon to see this engine series ... even the earlier 12 v iteration ... reach well past 500K miles on the first run. The engine is far better built than the rest of the Dodge truck and outlasts a lot of them in service.
Ford has no such mileage recommendation for any Power Stroke engine ... either the IHC engines they brought in or the in-house designs of later years. I've seen many Power Stroke 7.3's get well into the high hundreds of thousands of miles on a first run.
Cat engines? in what 3/4 or 1 ton truck are these installed? Never seen one in a Ford, GM, or Dodge truck in those size trucks here in the USA. I've got a lot of experience with 3204 (in marine applications and generators), 3206 & 3208 engine overhauls in Class 8's, and have never seen a description "check the cylinders for wear and a little clean-up", nor a directive to open up the heads to "port/polish" them. Cat manuals I've seen advise a wear limit in a cylinder and replacement if needed. Just like the wet liner Cummins ... if the bore is worn, you buy a cylinder kit which includes the cylinder sleeve, the new piston w/rings and wrist pin. The don't mess around with reboring a sleeve, they just replace them ... and it's not a difficult job to do with the appropriate extractor. I'll mention, too, that I've spent a fair number of hours with the factory counterbore fixture resurfacing the block and shimming the new sleeves to the correct protrusion deck height on these engines ... I spent several years doing an "in frame" a week on Cummins engines at a Peterbilt dealership. While I've not done one myself, the tech in the adjacent stall to mine did Detroit's engines for years and I watched him clean up the blocks and selectively fit liners into many 8V92's and 12v's ... as well as other DD 2-stroke engines. There simply isn't any "clean up" to an industrial diesel cylinder liner, it either measures within wear limits or it doesn't. Nor, for that matter, Peugeot diesels found in many industrial/forklift applications. MB dry sleeve diesel engines are one of the very few where I've re-bored to fit oversize pistons when the wear justified this service.
Again, I've spent a lot of time (well over 40 years) in the land of light, medium, heavy duty, stationary, mining, power generation, stand-by emergency, and a host of other diesel fleet, marine, and industrial applications and I've never seen an advisory to "port/polish" the heads. Cite us a diesel overhaul manual for Cummins or Cat that directs that, can you?
The only folk I know of who do this are seeking performance modifications to the engines they're working on, and no diesel manufacturer I've seen advocates doing this to their engines ... even if in the real world many folk do play around with fuel delivery rates, changes in turbo's, injection timing, etc., to increase delivered HP. Sometimes this comes at no penalty in durability/engine life, sometimes it comes with big penalties. But they're still not manufacturer directed to "port/polish" the heads as a routine overhaul procedure.
Do you even know what it is to "port/polish" the heads? have you just been reading a bunch of hot-rodder magazines and think this sounds good? have you any guideline shapes that would enhance the flow rates of Cummins and Cat engines resulting in a net HP increase for street use?
FWIW, I got to hang out with Ax Axtell and AJ Lewis many years ago ... two icons in the high peformance/world record setting business of performance motorcycles years ago. I've spent a bit of time with a dremel or an air die grinder "porting and polishing" and matching intake manifolds to cylinder heads to optomize airflow characteristics, under the close supervision of AJ with subsequent testing on Ax's flow bench. I built up a lot of Ducati and Moto Guzzi higher performance engines, some for pro racers .... Ain't nothing like this done in the regular diesel world for working vehicles on the street ....
Last edited by sunsprit; 12-04-2012 at 06:03 PM..
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