How do we deal with "sneaky" or "borderline" trolls/flamers?
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Hmmm, well, been here three years and only just now found this forum. Anyway . . .
I'm wondering how we, both users and moderators, should best deal with those who technically might not quite be considered trolls, but whose posts stir up enough trouble and bad feelings often enough that they have this effect to a great degree. Okay, to be candid here, I have one user in particular in mind. This guy seems to be a difficult case. I have seldom, if ever, seen any post by him that would clearly be a violation of TOS in the strictest technical sense, yet trouble seems to be stirred up all around this user's posts. He does this in a number of ways. For some of these I've seen numerous examples, for others only one or two, but it all adds up to a user who seems bent on getting people's blood boiling, but who is slippery about how he does this.
Some of what he does:
Insulting all those in a thread who disagree with him collectively--"You're all a bunch of idiots"--while never directing such a term as "idiot" at any one user, so, technically, it's not a personal insult.
Insulting users by directing his criticisms at their posts, rather than them personally, sometimes in condescending fashion--"You've really wasted your time authoring this lengthy diatribe, as I do not have time to be bothered to read it, and anyway, your anecdotal evidence is of little use in this discussion"--(a paraphrase, not an exact quote). Not a personal insult directed at the other user, yet still insulting.
Demanding that others provide links and statistics to back up their claims, while failing to do the same himself.
When he does provide statistics to back up his claims, providing stats that are apparently made up, as he offers no source, and then other users' investigation into actual stats turns up the fact that his stats are wildly off from the truth.
Twisting words. Sometimes he'll twist what other users say, but a trick this guy uses frequently is to express his own views in ways that IMPLY an opinion, sometimes an opinion on an especially controversial and/or sensitive topic, and an opinion which is sure to stir up strong feelings, then, after people have gone on for pages of venting against what he has said, coming back with something like, "Well, if you look at my exact words, I never did actually say what you're accusing me of saying, not in so many words."
Just recently I've run across a thread this guy started. He started the thread in a forum dedicated to subject matter that does not generally stir up controversy. However, his thread had a topic which could potentially stir up controversy, and which really was a very poor fit for the forum in question, relating to the forum's theme in only an indirect or peripheral fashion. Frankly, I could not help having the feeling that this user had found a forum with an uncontroversial theme, where exchanges between users are almost always courteous, an especially tempting target for planting a thread with a topic of tenuous relevance to the forum's theme, simply because this thread had the potential to stir up trouble. Of course I can't know this for sure, but when I consider this user's history, I'm suspicious.
In addition to the ways this user manages to skirt the rules, rarely if ever technically violating the rules, while still seeming to stir up trouble quite frequently, it's also difficult to pin him down as a pure troll because these inflaming kinds of posts actually are mixed in with quite a fair number of legitimate posts. That makes it tricky. I haven't made a point of really investigating this guy's posts, but I have happened to see enough of his body of work here at CD in the course of reading various threads to see that posts by this user are a mish-mash of legitimate posts along with many other posts which may not often technically violate any rules, but which seem to stir up trouble again and again.
While I'm discussing one user in particular because of the frequency of these kinds of posts by this person, I do occasionally see other users' single posts here and there which have similarities to the kinds of conduct displayed frequently by this particular user. In the case of the individual I'm presenting as the outstanding example of the problem, his info shows that he has been a member here for over three years, so apparently he has managed to escape sanctions for some time despite the trouble he seems to stir up frequently.
So what do we do about this sort of thing? Are moderators permitted to use enough judgment, make enough subjective evaluations of a user's apparent intentions, to take action even if rules are seldom if ever violated according to the letter of the law? Has the user I've singled out as the especially pointed example of the problem just been lucky enough or slippery enough not to be cauught and pinned down, or are moderators' actions limited enough by the rules that they really can't do much about a user like this? Should members report such other users and their posts, or is there so little that the mods can do in such cases that there's no point in making the effort?
Yes, I think reporting would be of much help. If a person is reported enough, by various people, even if we don't see the single post worth action, it may make us think. It might also be helpful to explain your motives in each report, to point out in the report message, that this is not the only instance and suggest that we go through some of that person's posting history.
On the other hand, if someone is "difficult to pin down as a troll," they might not be. They may just rub you the wrong way. There really is no clear line between intentional trolling and bluntness in expressing unpopular views. Often just ignoring such person is the best course of action. They happen to be on every forum.
Actually I think the particular person I have in mind seems to rub a lot of people the wrong way, based on comments I've seen. This particular situation is tricky, because I think the guy really is an odd mix of sometime serious post-maker, when he occasionally makes posts that offer legitimate opionions, sometime oddball, when he makes posts that offer alternative views on some issues, which may strike some people as odd but that's okay, and sometime troll who really does deliberately try to stir up trouble.
In any case, thank you Marka for your thoughts on this kind of situation. In the future I'll report such posts, either by this particular member or others, and follow your advice about explaining the context, if it's an ongoing problem. Thanks for the info.
One way to deal with someone you think might be trolling is to try to find common ground. Look for something in the suspected troll's post that you agree with, focus a reply on that and see how they react. If the reaction to positive feedback to their own words is negative, that's a strong indication that they're not really posting to be helpful, they're just here to argue.
One way to deal with someone you think might be trolling is to try to find common ground. Look for something in the suspected troll's post that you agree with, focus a reply on that and see how they react. If the reaction to positive feedback to their own words is negative, that's a strong indication that they're not really posting to be helpful, they're just here to argue.
Well put.. a dead giveaway of a troll..
Also, if a troll is specifically targeting you, then only make very brief replies to their "attacks".. don't waste time arguing, most of the time they'll waste their time to create lengthy flame after flame only to be met with your 3 word replies..
I always assume either some people just have a more controversial nature or perhaps they don't have a life where they can express themselves openly. This is what makes forums so popular to so many people. It isn't as though they are in your living room....so who cares if they are a little testy or over the top? It is a big site and any forum can be avoided if it becomes a bother.
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