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Old 03-27-2013, 10:14 PM
 
1,880 posts, read 2,308,882 times
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NB: Though this question was asked on the "gay adoption" thread, I moved the answer over to here so as not to derail that thread and I thought this thread was more relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
Really susan, do you think these women are told they are not worthy of parenting as much as they might be counseled they do not have the maturity, financial resources, support to raise a child? I can't imagine any adoption agency actually telling a pregnant woman she is not worthy to be a parent. After all, these agencies are hoping to be picked to represent the birth Moms when arranging adoption.
Of course some women, especially younger ones might be made to feel inadequate (again financially, etc) but I see inadequateness and unworthiness as two entirely separate things.
You might note I actually said "feeling that they are not worthy to parent" - i.e. is different to someone actually saying "You are unworthy of parenting".

Also inadequateness and feelings of inadequateness are also two separate things. A woman who may be an adequate, perhaps even good, parent can be made to feel that she is inadequate before even given birth for reasons unrelated to her intrinsic self.

Btw the counselling takes place long before the agency. The NCFA's program is designed to be used by non-adoption social workers - it is result-significant, not individual-significant.

It would be OK if the program was used as it may well have been intended - i.e. to help those who truly are incapable of parenting (eg extremely drug addicted or mentally ill or who have had children removed before) to accept the inevitability of adoption. However, it seems it is quite often used on perfectly nice ladies whose main problem is that their pregnancy was unplanned.

In fact, the emphasis is on "unplanned". This works on two levels:

1) In the past, "we" considered "single motherhood" to be irresponsible, now the emphasis is on "unplanned" and by emphasising the fact that the pregnancy was "unplanned" and thus connecting it to "irresponsibility", the person being counselled starts to internalise the message "I had an unplanned pregnancy thus that makes me irresponsible, thus because unplanned pregnancy=irresponsible, I am not responsible enough to raise a child".

2) It also works on the level that if one has an unplanned pregnancy, one did not plan on having a child beforehand. It is often then made clear to the client that because she did not plan for the child, she will always be found "wanting" compared with those people who have been planning for children for ages and have failed to produce one.

I always wondered what exactly bothered me about the following article (apart from the 32 uses of the word selfish/selfless etc) and I realised it was the emphasis on the "unplanned" status of the pregnancy. The intrinsic personality and capabilities of the clients seemed to be irrelevant - their unplanned pregnancy status was the main factor as to why the author felt they shouldn't parent:

http://www.heartbeatinternational.org/pdf/missing_piece.pdf

The next thin is the "Biology means nothing" mantra.

Now I will say the following disclaimers:
1) The "biology means nothing" mantra is of course a wonderful thing when it comes to love between a parent and child and vice versa
2) This does not mean that "biology means everything" either, not a single person on here has said that.

However, sometimes the "biology means nothing" mantra can be taken a bit far. Even those trying for a baby through IVF can be made to feel guilty for wanting to have a baby biological related to them. There is nothing wrong with people wanting to have biological babies - my APs and many other people's APs tried first to have bio babies and then adopted - so what? In fact, when it comes to newborn adoption, on the whole, it is the norm, and nothing wrong with that.

When it comes to counselling, the woman is told that she needs to put that biological relationship aside. When it comes to asking what she can offer a child compared with other people, she is expected to put that relationship aside and consider it of no importance when making that list. Even the fact that she is expected to make a list COMPARING HERSELF TO OTHERS is designed to accentuate her inadequacies. In the end, she can end up making the decision re her baby's future as if she is no importance to the child at all except as a vessel for carrying the child for others.

It is that COMPARING HERSELF TO OTHERS that, to me, is a problem in a lot of adoption counselling. She should be concentrating on her baby and then herself - forget about the others. There will always be those better than all of us - so what? In what other aspect of life are we expected to make importnt decisions because there are others better than us? Aren't we all supposed to do what is best for our situation?

That is why I am saying it is imprtant that a woman make a decision for her child's future based on HER SITUATION - not on what she can do COMPARED WITH OTHERS.

Also, I believe in moving forward - if at 3 months pregnant, a woman doesn't have the resources to riase a child, does that mean that everything should remain still? Pregnancies do last 9 months for many reasons, one of them being to help women get ready for birth. Thus an otherwise mature and responsible lady with limited resources and support may, with the help of a good unbiased counsellor, at least find more resources and support and, even if she still choses adoption, she will be in a better shape than before. One thing that many birthmoms will tell you, even the most content ones, is that very little counselling was done to help them to improve their lives in general.

So one can ask two questions:
1) I see you are pregnant, feeling vulnerable and have limited resources etc and are considering your parenting options (i.e. both parenting and adoption). Both are good options but why don't we put that aside right now and get you to a place where you feel less vulnerable so that you can make the decision re your child's future in as best a positoin as possible;
or
2) I see you are pregnant, feeling vulnerable and have limited resources right now etc and are considering your parenting options (i.e. both parenting and adoption). The fact that you have limited resources right now means you are not in a shape to parent, full stop. Let's face it, even if we found all the resources for you to parent, there will always be others more capable of you waiting to parent - LET'S COMPARE YOU TO OTHERS.

Here is a link to the NCFA program:

https://www.adoptioncouncil.org/training/birthparent-counseling-training.html

One reason I keep pointing out on other threads the importance of understanding the meaning of figures (eg are unwed/young mothers more likely to be from poverty-ridden backgrounds or do they become poverty-ridden because of their unwed status) is that these figures are being quoted in such a way that many women end up thinking that poverty is inevitable. In some cases, that can be ridiculous - I read a Mormon article where the Elder counselled a woman with supportive parents by telling her that her child would end up in poverty and quoting figures that had no relationship to her situation.

Btw in regards to all those "consider your option" questions, one notes that the client is asked all those questions not so much to see how they can answer them but more to overwhelm them.

The problem with all the above programs etc is that they are result-significant counselling not individual-specific counselling, it is not even relevant how she feels about parenting or not at the time of the counselling - it is designed more at changing a woman's thinking so that she comes to a particular decision. It involves asking questions, quoting facts and "channelling the child" in such a way, that, really, there is only one outcome. It is

It reminds me a bit of the "Magic numbers" game that one plays (of course, just an algebraic equation).

It involves asking a number X, doubling it, adding Y, halving the number, then subtracting you strated with and you get half of Y. Thus the important number is not the one you started with, the important number is the one in the question - thus by asking the question, you get the answer you desire. Thus, result-significant counselling is designed to get the result you want by asking the right questions - this is how the above counselling works.

Note that not all counselling is as above. I certainly hope that the bmothers of all your babies and all the bmoms on here got decent individual specific counselling. If so, then goodoh.

Last edited by susankate; 03-27-2013 at 11:06 PM..

 
Old 03-28-2013, 12:13 AM
 
Location: Australia
1,057 posts, read 1,691,367 times
Reputation: 1709
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avery_Harper View Post
I think baby dumps should be encouraged less and adoption plans promoted more by society simply because leaving a baby an abandoned foundling is irresponsible.
The reason babies get dumped anonymously is because the birth mother/father doesn't want a paper trail leading back to them. Many birth parents aren't interested in having their biochild track them down decades later, even in the case of closed adoptions/sealed records. I've read stories about people tracking down their birth parents even though the birth parents' identities were supposed to remain secret, by using private investigators and such.
 
Old 03-28-2013, 12:46 AM
 
297 posts, read 502,596 times
Reputation: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by StabbyAbby View Post
The reason babies get dumped anonymously is because the birth mother/father doesn't want a paper trail leading back to them. Many birth parents aren't interested in having their biochild track them down decades later, even in the case of closed adoptions/sealed records. I've read stories about people tracking down their birth parents even though the birth parents' identities were supposed to remain secret, by using private investigators and such.
Moderator Cut. Most of the women are in complete denial that they are pregnant and don't recognize that they have had a baby. They aren't thinking logically and definitely not thinking about a paper trail or their "child" tracking them down in the future.

They have found that these safe haven laws don't work. These women are in such a state of mind that they aren't thinking about the welfare of the baby and no safe haven law is going to fix that. These women are still abandoning babies in unsafe places. The women who did use the safe haven would most likely have made an adoption plan if the law didn't exist.

Last edited by Jaded; 03-29-2013 at 03:16 AM.. Reason: Personal attack
 
Old 03-28-2013, 01:39 AM
 
1,880 posts, read 2,308,882 times
Reputation: 1480
Quote:
Originally Posted by StabbyAbby View Post
The reason babies get dumped anonymously is because the birth mother/father doesn't want a paper trail leading back to them. Many birth parents aren't interested in having their biochild track them down decades later, even in the case of closed adoptions/sealed records. I've read stories about people tracking down their birth parents even though the birth parents' identities were supposed to remain secret, by using private investigators and such.
Stabby, as mentioned many a time on these forums the records were sealed to protect the adoptive family, not the bparents. This is proven by the fact that the adoption is sealed ONLY when the adoption is FINALISED. Bmothers may have been promised secrecy but it was actually never really done for them. If it was, why would so many APs actually have got names and info from the agencies of bparents who were supposedly promised confidentiality? Many states actually retroactively sealed records anyway (this started to happen once adoptees and bparents started to make contact - it wasn't thought of as a possibility before). So, BPs may well have been told "No-one will know" - (mainly meaning the public not so much the kid) but very few pre 70s bmoms would have been told the records would be sealed - because in many cases that wasn't actually an option at the time - the records were sealed retroactively. Other bmoms were actually promised that their child would be able to find them at 18, not realising that all adoptions at the time were closed and the child was probably never going to be able to do so, unless the state or country opened their records. The post-50s Western adoption was meant to be a way for childless women to become mothers and to raise their child "as if born to them" so interference by bparents was not desired - they were expected to butt out, get on with their lives and fade into the woodwork. Many did just that - some welcomed contact, others didn't. Adoptees were meant to have no interest in those birthparents - back in the 60s/70s if an adoptee wanted to know their bparents, they were considerably psychologically ill.

You might like to read earlier posts on forum re "privacy of birthmothers".

Funnily enough, a lot of adoptees actually get information from their adoptive parents that the APs received at the time of the adoption - so much for privacy.

I see you are in Australia. If you were an adoptee wanting to make contact with BPs, when you apply for your OBC, you would probably have to have mandatory counselling (so one can be made aware of the different outcomes), depending on the state. If the bmother doesn't want contact, she can put on a veto and in NSW, you might be arrested if you violate that veto. So bmothers are pretty well protected in NSW. She also has the right to say NO.

As the previous poster pointed out, many women abandon their child out of fear.

If a mother from pre 2001 didn't want anyone to know who she was, she wouldn't need to abandon it, there was probably nothing to stop her from lying and giving a false name. False name giving was obviously done by some bmoms. The ones who abandon their child seem more to operate out of fear and no doubt live in a sort of fear from the rest of their lives. Some obviously do care for their child - if they are well wrapped and placed in a warm place, that is often someone who cares for the child but is scared because of family finding out. These are the ones who use safe havens, not the ones who kill their newborns (neonaticide is often done because of disassociation - read previous link from Berkeley)

Also, let's face it, with the advances in DNA, the bparents could quite possibly be located that way.

Last edited by susankate; 03-28-2013 at 01:55 AM..
 
Old 03-28-2013, 07:19 AM
 
14,400 posts, read 14,303,039 times
Reputation: 45727
I would prefer that women place children for adoption through normal channels. There are problems with "abandonment laws". I think there is an issue about trying to create a "rational solution" for an "irrational problem". Women who would abandon their babies in a trash can or in the outdoors in a ditch are IMO unlikely to avail themselves of a specialized place for abandonment.

That being said, I am sure there are at least a few who would take advantage of the abandonment laws. I believe that even preventing a few unnecessary deaths of babies makes these laws worthwhile. Its difficult to say what these laws are really accomplishing. This may be a subject for study. However, while the study is going on, I prefer to preserve this option until its proven otherwise. Perhaps, these laws are a reaction to the fact that the normal process for adoption in many states has become too complicated and uncertain with too many people involved.

Some mothers, undoubtedly, would prefer to skip this whole process, place the child for adoption and move on. Laws in many states make placing a child for adoption quite difficult. Especially those laws that require the consent of an unmarried birth father. Its not unheard of for birth fathers to withhold consent from an adoption simply to cause trouble for a birth mother whom they now feel spite towards. There are also waiting periods in some states that some birth mothers would rather skip, or waive. Crisis pregnancy counseling is generally a good thing. However, some women would also prefer to skip this as well. Mentally competent adults should have that right if they choose to exercise it.

A system full of delays and uncertainties is not a good thing. It creates pressures that lead to things like a "baby abandonment law".
 
Old 03-28-2013, 11:20 PM
 
297 posts, read 502,596 times
Reputation: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I

A system full of delays and uncertainties is not a good thing. It creates pressures that lead to things like a "baby abandonment law".
Actually, there was no link between baby abandonment and adoption until the law enacted. Women who abandon their babies are not women who are even thinking about adoption. In a lot of cases, the women don't even recognize that they are pregnant and don't see the end product as a child. They are in complete denial. They are not abandoning their babies because there are delays in adoption. In their mind, there is no baby to plan for. The law has made no difference for these babies. They are still being left in unsafe places due to the women's state of mind.

The baby abandonment law has created the link between abandonment and adoption, by allowing abandonment as a means to adoption. A lot of the recent studies say that the women who used safe haven would have made an adoption plan if the law never existed.
 
Old 03-29-2013, 12:21 AM
 
Location: California
37,135 posts, read 42,209,520 times
Reputation: 35013
Quote:
They have found that these safe haven laws don't work.
You mean they don't SOLVE the problelm. Do they harm? If not, they work. I don't see the upside to NOT having "safe havens".
 
Old 03-29-2013, 12:55 AM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,692,979 times
Reputation: 22474
State expands 'safe haven' law for newborns | Minnesota Public Radio News

According to this source just in Minnesota, it's been 18 babies, but of course if 18 babies were dropped off, it doesn't mean they would have been left to die otherwise, but since these laws only protect the mother from prosecution, there is almost no cost to having the safe havens.

It's got to be better not just for the baby but for the woman/girl, certainly even if there is denial, having an option to leave the baby in a safe place is better.

It's not so unlike those people who drop puppies or kittens off in some remote place, maybe some really don't care and see them as disposable, but at least some people would prefer a non-judgemental drop off for them if it were available.
 
Old 03-29-2013, 03:13 AM
 
1,851 posts, read 3,399,105 times
Reputation: 2369
Quote:
Originally Posted by susankate View Post
Jaded, did you read this link? You might find this link about neonaticide interesting
Yes I did. It was very interesting and stated facts I'd thought about and have mentioned here. It is an old study though, so I did a little more research and found this site:

Safe Haven for Newborns Statistics

I will say that at the time this study was done, the laws were still fairly new and that now it appears they are helping. Of course, these laws will never "cure" or "treat" women who commit neonaticide because there are multiple issues these women face, however, they are becoming a way to help women in such situations and they are saving more baby's lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogluvr2012 View Post
Most of the women are in complete denial that they are pregnant and don't recognize that they have had a baby. They aren't thinking logically and definitely not thinking about a paper trail or their "child" tracking them down in the future.

They have found that these safe haven laws don't work. These women are in such a state of mind that they aren't thinking about the welfare of the baby and no safe haven law is going to fix that. These women are still abandoning babies in unsafe places. The women who did use the safe haven would most likely have made an adoption plan if the law didn't exist.
Please see link above. The laws are working, and these women would not have, because as you've stated are not in the right frame of mind, made an adoption plan. The laws are created to save babies, not "fix" the women who abandon them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogluvr2012 View Post
Actually, there was no link between baby abandonment and adoption until the law enacted...In their mind, there is no baby to plan for. The baby abandonment law has created the link between abandonment and adoption, by allowing abandonment as a means to adoption.

A lot of the recent studies say that the women who used safe haven would have made an adoption plan if the law never existed.
Regarding your first comment, true, this is why they abandon their babies and will never make an adoption plan. However, no link was ever needed to be made between adoption and abandonment. Any abandoned child is automatically taken into child protective services and into foster care and/or adoption. No law was created as a "means" to adoption. Babies abandoned, who survive, are ALWAYS adopted or placed in foster care. Where else would they go?

Regarding your second comment, please share the links for "a lot of the recent studies."
 
Old 03-29-2013, 05:56 AM
 
1,013 posts, read 1,192,709 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Some mothers, undoubtedly, would prefer to skip this whole process, place the child for adoption and move on. Laws in many states make placing a child for adoption quite difficult. Especially those laws that require the consent of an unmarried birth father.
That's because it is in the child's best interests to be raised by their bio family (if fit & willing to parent) & the right to raise your child is seen as above the mother's preference to "skip the whole process & move on."

Quote:
A system full of delays and uncertainties is not a good thing. It creates pressures that lead to things like a "baby abandonment law".
How many babies have been abandoned simply because the mother didn't want to go through the process of adoption? I'm sure the thought of adoption never even crossed most of their minds. & unless they had a previous experience giving a child up for adoption, I highly doubt they'd even be aware of adoption laws.
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