[Frankie117]

Originally Posted by pvjd

I always hear a lot of negativity about people from the north, but having lived in the north, having family and friends in the north, etc. I can honestly say that most of it boils down to a select few southerners (dare I say elitists?) being a bit too defensive about their lifestyle, as well as a stubborness and resistance to all things different or "progressive" (God, I hate that word). Please don't be offended by my statement and post hateful things toward me.

First of all, sorry if I offended you, that statement wasn't really directed at your specifically.

I too hate the work "Progressive" I mean seriously, that in itself is very derogatory. The South began recovering from its previous economically crises (The South only began a full recovering from our war of Northern Aggression in the 1950's, the Depression kinda knocked us on our asses a second time...), we are recovering, not progressing. Its like people want the South to be exactly like the rest of the country, but we want to maintain our cultural identity. I think a lot of problems come from that fact that Southerns are facing a 'cultural extinction' since there won't be too many of us left if current population influxes continue.

The South is a geographical location, Dixie refers to the cultural attributes. If you are offended by a prideful slogan such as "Heart of Dixie" then perhaps you should reconsider that the world does not revolve around you, and there will always been someone offended by something somewhere...true fact.

Originally Posted by knightofeffect

In my mind the confederacy was a mistake, and the flag is a grim reminder of lives thrown away protecting many beliefs that are better left lost. I feel it should be treated as a memorial to those who did die, instead of a symbol of southern pride as it is so largely now. People from the north view it as a sign of intolerance and ignorance, and while these views are not completely justified, the people who trumpet these symbols of southern pride around don't do much to sway those views. I am in no way offended by the flag itself, I have a solemn respect for what occurred during the civil war; however, I am annoyed by what it as been turned into... What southern pride can people derive from it?

To me taking pride in being "The Heart of Dixie" means holding these values dear. Alabama is simply called the "heart" since it resides in the core of where these ideals became a way of life. People that no longer live down here can change the saying from “The Heart of Dixie” to “Dixie of the Heart” without losing any of real meaning.

Had the "War of Northern Aggression" (The United States had no civil war since a civil war implies two or more factions fighting for control of a single government, the South was fighting a war for Independence, therefore we had no Civil War...) happened a few years later (Why did you die on us Henry Clay..the great compromiser..) the South would have fared a lot better. The ideals of an independent Southern nation have been glorified since the founding of the US, and did not come out of no-where in the Winter of 1860. The war started in 1776 not 1861.

Yes...A lot of Southerns, civilian and military alike suffered, but the cause was just. And since the South did have a great chance of success up until Gettysburg and Sherman's March...we must have been doing something right.

I take pride in that flag, as long as that Confederate flag flies somewhere, there is hope for us yet. I guess that would be difficult to understand for a non-native, but it is in no way their fault.

By the way...Heart of Dixie comes from the fact that the first capital of the CSA was in Montgomery, AL. South Carolina is the actual "cultural center" of the South.

Lastly, don't make this a racial issue (this comment is at no one specific)...blacks and whites alike are Southerners all the same. A lot of blacks embrace Southern heritage in the same way whites do.

[zenjenn]

Well from the perspective of the typical non-Southerner, the Civil War (and we'll just continue to call it that, semantics not withstanding, since it's the generally accepted nomenclature) is generally seen as being all about slavery. Therefore the Confederate flag is seen as a symbol of slavery, and a standard waved only by freaky confederate-nationalist zealots who wish to see slavery's return.

Of course people more educated on the issue know that the Civil War was not entirely about slavery, and that on the issue of slavery the North was not exactly an enlightened knight in shining armor. Abraham Lincoln himself had stated that if dropping the emancipation issue in and of itself would have assured that the Union would have remained intact, then the emancipation issue would have been dropped. Slavery was a social and economic reality at the time, and the Civil War had to do with so much more.

And I get that. I do. People have ancestors that died for the Confederacy in a terribly bloody war, and the reason those ancestors fought and died for their homeland may well have had nothing to do with being a big, slavery-loving meanie.

All that aside though, like it or not the Confederate flag DOES carry a lot of baggage when it comes to issues of racial tension in America, and there have been those that use the flag negatively towards those ends.

I may acknowledge that waving a hand is a common greeting, but if my culture changes and due to a variety of other cultural and political influences hand-waving because a rude and offensive gesture, a reasonable and considerate person will simply stop waving their hand at other people, even if they secretly think it is silly. A stubborn person says "Damnit, waving a hand is friendly, it was friendly for my grandfathers and it'll be friendly for ME too!"

Of course, a reasonable and considerate person will also acknowledge that not everyone that waves their hand is trying to be rude and offensive, but they are in a more difficult position to judge.

A silly example but I think relevant. One of those things where people have to acknowledge both the historical relevance AND concede that time has changed the symbolic meaning for many (arguably most) people in this country.

[pvjd]

Don't worry, I am certainly not offended. Everybody has a right to express their thoughts on here, that's what the forum is for.

[Reactionary]

Originally Posted by zenjenn

Abraham Lincoln himself had stated that if dropping the emancipation issue in and of itself would have assured that the Union would have remained intact, then the emancipation issue would have been dropped.

Except that Lincoln knew it wouldn't be dropped and that the nation could not survive "half-slave, half-free" - IMO it was like a throwaway comment - his record of opposition to slavery is too well-documented.

Originally Posted by zenjenn

the reason those ancestors fought and died for their homeland may well have had nothing to do with being a big, slavery-loving meanie.

Right on. Fightin Joe kind of agrees with that comment:

Great Speech of Hon. Joseph Wheeler, of Alabama.
From the Richmond, Va., Dispatch, July 31, 1894
Causes Of The War.
Opposition of the Southern Colonists to Slavery, and Their Devotion to the Union--Advocates of Secession.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/wheelercauses.htm

It was all them Damnyankee's fault

[RuralCoastalGuy]

Although this thread occasionally goes off topic, and they all do...from discussing The Heart of Dixie slogan to arguments about the Civil War (a/k/a War of Northern Aggression..have to make all feel welcome ...I am pleased that every poster has commented or replied or counter replied with dignity, intelligence and most of all GOOD MANNERS!. That is how any forum should be used.

When I started this thread I had no idea it would balloon this large or have such a long duration, but I daresay there are still more intelligent comments out there waiting to be heard so I hope the Mods will allow it more life.

Since we are also in the heart of the holiday season let me wits each and every one of you a Happy Holiday Season however you celebrate it. May the grace of The Grand Architect of the Universe bestow his blessings upon all of us.

[knightofeffect]

Originally Posted by Frankie117

I too hate the work "Progressive" I mean seriously, that in itself is very derogatory. The South began recovering from its previous economically crises (The South only began a full recovering from our war of Northern Aggression in the 1950's, the Depression kinda knocked us on our asses a second time...), we are recovering, not progressing. Its like people want the South to be exactly like the rest of the country, but we want to maintain our cultural identity. I think a lot of problems come from that fact that Southerns are facing a 'cultural extinction' since there won't be too many of us left if current population influxes continue.

Let me start off by saying that I'm only second generation American born, so my roots may not lie as deep as yours...

While I agree that the south's cultural heritage is invaluable (as I enumerated in my last post), I don't see the population influx as a threat to that. It is that very southern way of life that people see as attractive when they move here; just a few moments on this board is a great example of this. Over the next few decades will the south's cultural identity shift some? Yes, but after all this is still America, the great melting pot.

Originally Posted by Frankie117

The South is a geographical location, Dixie refers to the cultural attributes. If you are offended by a prideful slogan such as "Heart of Dixie" then perhaps you should reconsider that the world does not revolve around you, and there will always been someone offended by something somewhere...true fact.

Agreed, as this somewhat echoes what I was saying...

Originally Posted by Frankie117

Had the "War of Northern Aggression" (The United States had no civil war since a civil war implies two or more factions fighting for control of a single government, the South was fighting a war for Independence, therefore we had no Civil War...) happened a few years later (Why did you die on us Henry Clay..the great compromiser..) the South would have fared a lot better.

I find it a bit ironic that you wished for greater compromise as a tool for greater war...

Originally Posted by Frankie117

The ideals of an independent Southern nation have been glorified since the founding of the US, and did not come out of no-where in the Winter of 1860. The war started in 1776 not 1861.

Naturally the buildup to the war was no-where near swift, but instead spanned multiple generations. And, yes, there were talks of an independent southern nation even at the time of our country's founding; however, even back then, through the war, and still today the quote "A country divided cannot stand" holds true. There were so many gigantic hurdles in our founders’ way in just creating one new country's framework; I don't even want to imagine attempting two. We could write several pages on the intricacies of state vs. nation politics dating back to the revolutionary and War Between the States, but overall I think we can agree that we are stronger together.

Originally Posted by Frankie117

Yes...A lot of Southerns, civilian and military alike suffered, but the cause was just. And since the South did have a great chance of success up until Gettysburg and Sherman's March...we must have been doing something right.

Originally Posted by Frankie117

I take pride in that flag, as long as that Confederate flag flies somewhere, there is hope for us yet. I guess that would be difficult to understand for a non-native, but it is in no way their fault.

This is where you kind of lost me.
What was this great just cause, the preservation of an agricultural based society?
When you said "doing something right", are you now discussing military prowess during the war? And if so, why?
In the midst of all the current struggles our country is faced with, why would you still hold out hope for succession?
Difficult to understand? Yes.

Originally Posted by Frankie117

By the way...Heart of Dixie comes from the fact that the first capital of the CSA was in Montgomery, AL. South Carolina is the actual "cultural center" of the South.

This makes good sense, and I will definitely defer to your knowledge on this. It just seems to me that, while South Carolina was the cultural basis for the south as the south was being formed (pre war), the heart of the southern culture is identified further south in Alabama today.

Originally Posted by Frankie117

Lastly, don't make this a racial issue (this comment is at no one specific)...blacks and whites alike are Southerners all the same. A lot of blacks embrace Southern heritage in the same way whites do.

I'm sure you aren't referring to me about making it a racial issue, as I never even brought it up in my previous post. While I agree that whites and blacks both embrace their heritage in the south, saying that the do "in the same way" is quite a stretch.

[kevin_1975]

Originally Posted by pvjd

Stars Fell on Alabama is actually an autobiography by Carl Cramer, where he writes about his experiences in Alabama. Decent enough book, but still a wierd license plate slogan consiering that it is the title of a book.

The tag refers to a meteor shower that occured November 12, 1833. A century later is when the book and song were inspired.

[pvjd]

Originally Posted by kevin_1975

The tag refers to a meteor shower that occured November 12, 1833. A century later is when the book and song were inspired.

That's really intersting, I didn't know the two events were related. Cool.

[NCTarheel07]

I hate to change the focus here, but I am going to back up the NC slogan "First in Flight". The wright brothers were born in Ohio and made their plane in Dayton, I believe. They needed a location that was sutible for flying their plane. The way the winds blow on the outer banks was perfect conditions. Also, if they crashed, the sand wouldent do as much damage to themselves or their plain.

so the slogans on both states plates are correct. Ohio is the "birthplace" of avation and NC was the "first in flight".

[RuralCoastalGuy]

Originally Posted by NCTarheel07

I hate to change the focus here, but I am going to back up the NC slogan "First in Flight". The wright brothers were born in Ohio and made their plane in Dayton, I believe. They needed a location that was sutible for flying their plane. The way the winds blow on the outer banks was perfect conditions. Also, if they crashed, the sand wouldent do as much damage to themselves or their plain.

so the slogans on both states plates are correct. Ohio is the "birthplace" of aviation and NC was the "first in flight".

NCTarheel007:

No argument from me...