Why doesn't it work anymore to "live off the land?" (Hope: living, garden)

[RayinAK]

Originally Posted by starlite9

Unless you live by the ocean, it is a very hard lifestyle. If you are a bit lazy, you would be toast in the interior. By the Ocean the term "when the tides out, the table is set" applies. At least on the interior you could have a fish wheel and have dried fish for winter, but it still would be a battle to survive. To farm, you would need machinery to clear land and then your aren't self sufficient needing fuel and parts, winter would be very hard on a horse and again would require outside food source or you let it roam free in winter to feed itself and the wolves/bears would eat it!

You can live comfortably, but it would require having links to towns.

Good points, Starlite9.

I will add the following to "fish wheels." As you probably know already, having a fish wheel at Chitina can be a very difficult, and sometimes expensive proposition. Almost every Spring the ice on the Copper washes off and destroys several of the fish wheels. A friend of mine has one, and two years ago the ice dragged it across the river and shoved it on the bridge. It took a small fortune to bring it back to the other side.

[starlite9]

Originally Posted by RayinAK

Good points, Starlite9.

I will add the following to "fish wheels." As you probably know already, having a fish wheel at Chitina can be a very difficult, and sometimes expensive proposition. Almost every Spring the ice on the Copper washes off and destroys several of the fish wheels. A friend of mine has one, and two years ago the ice dragged it across the river and shoved it on the bridge. It took a small fortune to bring it back to the other side.

Yep, on all the rivers in the interior have the same issues with ice distroying the fish wheels left on the banks in winters.

[pittsflyer]

Also I am almost certian you have to be some percentage native in order to even be able to legally have a fish wheel. I am sure a non native could get one if they could demonstarte that they make their shoes out of moose hide and live in a teepe but I have never heard of a white man getting rights to own a fish wheel.

[AKStafford]

Originally Posted by pittsflyer

Also I am almost certian you have to be some percentage native in order to even be able to legally have a fish wheel. I am sure a non native could get one if they could demonstarte that they make their shoes out of moose hide and live in a teepe but I have never heard of a white man getting rights to own a fish wheel.

I was thinking the same thing... But then a guy I know was telling me he runs a fish wheel, and he's pretty white.
I found this and it doesn't mention being Alaskan Native: Regulations - Chitina Personal Use Salmon Fishery, Alaska Department of Fish and Game

[RayinAK]

No. You don't have to be Native to have a fish wheel. But there are only so many spots where you can have one in the water. These things are large and heavy, and you would have to move it to the spot using heavy equipment on land. For example, there are around 10 fish wheels at Chitina, in the water by a gravel shore upstream of the bridge. The fish wheels are anchored in the water by the use of steel cables and very large and heavy concrete blocks. It's so much time consuming and expensive to have a fish wheel in there that most people just rent the fish wheels for a few days or weeks at a time. And you can't leave a fish wheel with the basket or scoop in the water catching salmon unattended. You have to take care of it every 4 hours (if I well remember), at which point you clean and take care of the fish if any.

To get the fish wheel to the spot in the water, you pay a heavy equipment operator who has a very tall loader (more like a very tall forklift) to move and anchor it for you. At the end of the season the fish wheels are moved back to the gravel bar, and if you are lucky the river ice during the Spring does not destroy it. The land all around the fish wheels belongs to the Natives, you just can't leave it on that land unless you pay a fee. It means that you have to move the fish wheel to a section of State land, or leave it in the water and hope for the best.

[pittsflyer]

Ok, so when my dad and I went out there when I was very little he knew one of the natives that had land along the river so he did not have to go through all that. So in a way you have to be native to avoid a major hassle or incure major fees.

I knew there was some kind of catch that had to do with natives, I think the native guy just pulled it up on shore in winter and that was it, he may have just used his truck. If you dont own some river frontage then it sounds like its not even worth the hassle.

Originally Posted by RayinAK

No. You don't have to be Native to have a fish wheel. But there are only so many spots where you can have one in the water. These things are large and heavy, and you would have to move it to the spot using heavy equipment on land. For example, there are around 10 fish wheels at Chitina, in the water by a gravel shore upstream of the bridge. The fish wheels are anchored in the water by the use of steel cables and very large and heavy concrete blocks. It's so much time consuming and expensive to have a fish wheel in there that most people just rent the fish wheels for a few days or weeks at a time. And you can't leave a fish wheel with the basket or scoop in the water catching salmon unattended. You have to take care of it every 4 hours (if I well remember), at which point you clean and take care of the fish if any.

To get the fish wheel to the spot in the water, you pay a heavy equipment operator who has a very tall loader (more like a very tall forklift) to move and anchor it for you. At the end of the season the fish wheels are moved back to the gravel bar, and if you are lucky the river ice during the Spring does not destroy it. The land all around the fish wheels belongs to the Natives, you just can't leave it on that land unless you pay a fee. It means that you have to move the fish wheel to a section of State land, or leave it in the water and hope for the best.

[akpls]

A guy that works for me has a fish wheel at Chitina.....and he doesn't have a drop of Native blood in him. I'll have to remember to ask him about it.

[RayinAK]

Originally Posted by akpls

A guy that works for me has a fish wheel at Chitina.....and he doesn't have a drop of Native blood in him. I'll have to remember to ask him about it.

At Chitina, the State has a narrow right of way on the gravel bar, and then the river itself, including the narrow shore. It means that if you stay within the right of way, you can move a fish wheel to the river, and back out of there at the end of the season, without having to go through Native lands. So you don't have to be Native to have a fish wheel.

The problem over there for the past two years has been as follows: one of the rivers flowing to the Copper a few hundred yards upstream from the fish wheels overflowed its bed, and cut another channel across the gravel bar downstream of the fish wheels. So if the water of the new channel is too high, you can't make it across to check your fish wheel. The State and Natives have been trying to come to an agreement for the State to dam the new channel with gravel to divert the flow back to the main channel upstream the fish wheels. For two years nothing has been done about it.

If the water is low, you can drive a vehicle to the fish wheels, but if the water comes up while you are by the fish wheels, you get stranded out there.

[pittsflyer]

I think its comical that the state and everyone else jumps through their own back sides to spend all this money and deal with unnessicary risk instead of just making the right of way bigger. If people just pulled their wheels up far enough so its on the actual land and not the gavel bar then this would not be an issue.

Originally Posted by RayinAK

At Chitina, the State has a narrow right of way on the gravel bar, and then the river itself, including the narrow shore. It means that if you stay within the right of way, you can move a fish wheel to the river, and back out of there at the end of the season, without having to go through Native lands. So you don't have to be Native to have a fish wheel.

The problem over there for the past two years has been as follows: one of the rivers flowing to the Copper a few hundred yards upstream from the fish wheels overflowed its bed, and cut another channel across the gravel bar downstream of the fish wheels. So if the water of the new channel is too high, you can't make it across to check your fish wheel. The State and Natives have been trying to come to an agreement for the State to dam the new channel with gravel to divert the flow back to the main channel upstream the fish wheels. For two years nothing has been done about it.

If the water is low, you can drive a vehicle to the fish wheels, but if the water comes up while you are by the fish wheels, you get stranded out there.

[RayinAK]

Originally Posted by pittsflyer

Ok, so when my dad and I went out there when I was very little he knew one of the natives that had land along the river so he did not have to go through all that. So in a way you have to be native to avoid a major hassle or incure major fees.

I knew there was some kind of catch that had to do with natives, I think the native guy just pulled it up on shore in winter and that was it, he may have just used his truck. If you dont own some river frontage then it sounds like its not even worth the hassle.

Not really a problem. All you have to do is to follow the instructions about right of ways provided to you by F&G when you apply for the dipping permit. Stay within the right of ways, and you will be fine. Otherwise just have a talk with the Native organizations relating to fees. It does not really cost that much.

I have never had a single problem, nor have I had to pay any fees. The boat launch places are within the right of way, and the river too.